Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

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Post by obiwan on Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:06 am

I really cannot think of an acceptable explanation for not complying with the reasonable immigration requirements of a country one is visiting unless it is one of the more repressive regimes, which certainly wouldn't include Australia. Even then there must be a good reason for it, simply to make money wouldn't be acceptable as far as I can see.

The fact people like KM think what they are doing is in some sense 'religious' makes me scratch my head.

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Post by Neilos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:59 am

In reply to Mark's question to Scott. I sat with Kai at Eastbourne and I have sat with him on another occasion since. My opinion is that I do not believe the phenomenon I experienced at the Eastbourne séance could have been fraudulent due to the way the room was set up and the range of phenomena observed. I observed 4 different kinds of ectoplasm plus spirit lights that look nothing like the D-lite videos. The trumpet phenomena was amazing and in my opinion impossible to create by cheating. The only way that it could be done is if the medium was able to hide a telescopic rod on his person that could be moved at high speed and the length to range from 6 to at least 30 feet.

There was very little in terms evidence of survival evidence but I understand that Kai's team are working towards that objective.


Last edited by Neilos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Lis on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:15 am

Thank you for your comments Neilos. Interesting. How would you then explain the other evidence that has accumulated that really does not seem can be refuted?

Also, I am most intrigued to see you make mention of trumpet phenomena. This is not something that I had heard formed part of Kai's usual phenomena.

And "4 different kinds of ectoplasm"? Surely there has only ever been one type? Please do, if you can, explain what these different types of ectoplasm were, and how they were described as such in the séance you attended.

Lis
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Post by Admin on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:30 am

If you add to that the possible use of hallucinatory drugs, which I understand that David Thompson has suggested, on PM 4U occurs, while not suggesting which mediums are involved, which supports the contentions in this thread, then the issues become very real where is reality and where is a drug induced sub conscious reality.
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Post by Jane Lyzell on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:57 am

Admin wrote:If you add to that the possible use of hallucinatory drugs, which I understand that David Thompson has suggested, on PM 4U occurs, while not suggesting which mediums are involved, which supports the contentions in this thread, then the issues become very real where is reality and where is a drug induced sub conscious reality.

hallucinatory drugs,- you are kidding mee - this is soo bad Evil or Very Mad
Jane Lyzell
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Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:34 am

Lis wrote:

Also, I am most intrigued to see you make mention of trumpet phenomena. This is not something that I had heard formed part of Kai's usual phenomena.


Hi Lis,

The trumpet phenomena is part of Kai Mügge´s normal performance, at least in my three years. And the trumpet is more far away of the cabinet like i.e. Lamar Keene´s fake revealed in a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLzwzYziubI#t=11
But again: this doesn´t mean that it is not a trick if one can´t explain it in the moment. There are much more fascinating tricks in bright light i can´t explain, too. This doesn´t mean either, that spirit is working with the tricks i can´t explain.
I can remember being in Basel with KM to watch a Bill Meadow´s show. I was impressed by the speed Meadows´ two trumpets had. Mügge not, he said: „ i can do this, too“ Obviously it´s not so easy to do, because KM still „works“ with only one trumpet. Because it was not far away from the cabinet, it could be, that Meadows was just standing in front of the cabinet like Keene did. Meadows is another cable tie artist like WC and DT. In this very show, there was a swiss magician invited by Lucius Werthmüller secretly. This magician was not impressed at all about the performance of Meadows and has written a clear statement about this. He explained how he would do these tricks shown by Meadows. Mügge couldn´t believe, that LW invited a magician to the show. They were the „natural enemies“ of mediums in his eyes and actually Mügge made LW not to publish the concern´s of this magician.


Last edited by dont-like-frauds on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Neilos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:53 pm

The trumpet phenomena was the best I have seen. The cabinet was surrounded by two horse shoe shaped rows of chairs and there was no gap between the end chairs and cabinet. I observed the trumpet fly outside both circles of chairs and at least 15 feet into the room. Fly around at high speed and return; it tapped the person on the head to my left (I was in the second row and stood behind the chair of the mediums wife). The trumpet flew around myself and the person to my left before returning to the inside of the circle.

In my experience ectoplasm can range in shape, form and density and I observed this at the sitting.

Neilos


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Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:59 pm

Neilos wrote:The trumpet phenomena was the best I have seen. The cabinet was surrounded by two horse shoe shaped rows of chairs and there was no gap between the end chairs and cabinet. I observed the trumpet fly outside both circles of chairs and at least 15 feet into the room. Fly around at high speed and return; it tapped the person on the head to my left (I was in the second row and stood behind the chair of the mediums wife). The trumpet flew around myself and the person to my left before returning to the inside of the circle.

In my experience ectoplasm can range in shape, form and density and I observed this at the sitting.

Oh, is Mügge meanwhile acting with two circle rows? Yes, can get more guests resp. entrance fees. "In my time" only one row was wanted, so that everyone could get the same chance to be touched etc. Are there different prices for first row, second row, like in an ordinary circus?

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Post by Neilos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:06 pm

In fairness it was the organisers who arranged the séance and Kai raised reservations about the amount of people.

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Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:09 pm

Neilos wrote:In fairness it was the organisers who arranged the séance and Kai raised reservations about the amount of people.

Interesting. where do you know such details from? Normally Mügge rules, not the organizer. Always.

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Post by Neilos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:11 pm

It was arranged by the Gordon Higginson Fellowship.

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Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:14 pm

You mean at this very happening?

Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge - Page 11 Fbi_li10

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Post by Neilos on Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:18 pm

The very one yep.

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Post by Lis on Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:02 am

dont-like-frauds wrote:
Lis wrote:

Also, I am most intrigued to see you make mention of trumpet phenomena. This is not something that I had heard formed part of Kai's usual phenomena.


Hi Lis,

The trumpet phenomena is part of Kai Mügge´s normal performance, at least in my three years. And the trumpet is more far away of the cabinet like i.e. Lamar Keene´s fake revealed in a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLzwzYziubI#t=11
But again: this doesn´t mean that it is not a trick if one can´t explain it in the moment. There are much more fascinating tricks in bright light i can´t explain, too. This doesn´t mean either, that spirit is working with the tricks i can´t explain.
I can remember being in Basel with KM to watch a Bill Meadow´s show. I was impressed by the speed Meadows´ two trumpets had. Mügge not, he said: „ i can do this, too“ Obviously it´s not so easy to do, because KM still „works“ with only one trumpet. Because it was not far away from the cabinet, it could be, that Meadows was just standing in front of the cabinet like Keene did. Meadows is another cable tie artist like WC and DT. In this very show, there was a swiss magician invited by Lucius Werthmüller secretly. This magician was not impressed at all about the performance of Meadows and has written a clear statement about this. He explained how he would do these tricks shown by Meadows. Mügge couldn´t believe, that LW invited a magician to the show. They were the „natural enemies“ of mediums in his eyes and actually Mügge made LW not to publish the concern´s of this magician.

Hi don't-like-frauds,

Thanks for clarifying about the use of trumpet phenomena in Muegge's séances.

Interesting that Lucius Werthmuller allowed a magician into a Bill Meadow's séance. I wonder why he bothered if he then was 'convinced' by KM not to publish the magician's considered statement about what they thought of the performance.

Lis
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Post by Admin on Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:32 am

In my days as the Great Zardini, on the Magic Café Forum, as a part of a debate about magicians escaping cable ties and producing the performances that were being written about in the descriptions of contemporary dark seances, it became clear that almost all on that forum felt they could do this. They could escape, retie themselves and produce all of the effects, some were sure that they could even, by knowing who was attending the event and seating them, give survival evidence; collected beforehand.

The real issue for them was not about being able to; but to what purpose it was. The art of a magician is to produce these effects while people are watching, they needed the light because to do this in the dark was pointless, no one would see their skill in operation. So whilst they could work like this, in the dark, it would be a waste of time. Indeed who would pay to see a magician perform in the dark!

Anyway the Wizard of the North, Anderson, Houdin (not Houdini), Maskelyne (and many more) perfected the magic shows of lights, musical instruments, etc. long ago leaving many records and books about their work.

As we well know, from all our research with Marc, this type of mediumship has been well exposed; over many years. There is no doubt the Davenports were so frequently caught that they changed their act from pseudo Spiritualist Séance to mystery act (albeit many Spiritualists continued to try and credit their work to Spirit). Anna Eva Fay, after her many exposures, from Spiritualist Séance to Vaudeville (while becoming a very close friend of Houdini to the level at which she was the first honorary female associate of the Magic Circle).

It is harder to find genuine examples of this type of "mediumship" than fraudulent ones (as we know when Jonathan Koons worked away from his Spirit House he was caught in fraud). Probably the most believable examples were DD Home's work in the testing by Sir William Crookes. But Home himself agreed with Cox and Crookes that this was the "Psychic Force" at work not the power of Spirit.

Sadly magicians can be the enemy of mediums, one may see why Kai would think this, but why are they? Some great magicians still could not discredit the very best mediums of the past. Even David Abbott was left pondering a few examples he came across.


Last edited by Admin on Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Admin on Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:43 am

Hmm I discover now there is a real Great Zardini so I will not use that name again.
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Post by Neilos on Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:53 am

Would be interested in how some of the phenomenon I have experienced could be replicated by a magician given the same controls and environment. Great idea to invite a magician to a séance though Smile.

Neilos


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Post by dont-like-frauds on Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:54 am

Admin wrote:

Sadly magicians can be the enemy of mediums, one may see why Kai would think this, but why are they? Some great magicians still could not discredit the very best mediums of the past. Even David Abbott was left pondering a few examples he came across.

...yes, i´m with you. Magicians are just human beings doing their job, too. Nothing to be afraid of, only if you have sth. to hide.
After the disillusion with Mügge it feeded my soul to watch video´s of James Randi like this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MFAvH8m8aI
I can´t see him as an enemy (like before - i have to add), more than a friend cleaning so much "dirt" away. I don´t have to share his view, that there is nothing, but that´s very ok for me. On the other side i know now at least two people having left Mügge´s circle after they´ve understood was is going on there and having or having had serious psychic problems because of this cheating affair (and i´m not talking about me), so there is a need for people like Randi and others who try to stop fraud as soon as possible.

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Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:52 am

dont-like-frauds wrote:
Admin wrote:

Sadly magicians can be the enemy of mediums, one may see why Kai would think this, but why are they? Some great magicians still could not discredit the very best mediums of the past. Even David Abbott was left pondering a few examples he came across.

...yes, i´m with you. Magicians are just human beings doing their job, too. Nothing to be afraid of, only if you have sth. to hide.
After the disillusion with Mügge it feeded my soul to watch video´s of James Randi like this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MFAvH8m8aI
I can´t see him as an enemy (like before - i have to add), more than a friend cleaning so much "dirt" away. I don´t have to share his view, that there is nothing, but that´s very ok for me. On the other side i know now at least two people having left Mügge´s circle after they´ve understood was is going on there and having or having had serious psychic problems because of this cheating affair (and i´m not talking about me), so there is a need for people like Randi and others who try to stop fraud as soon as possible.

The difficulty with Randi is that everything is presumed to be fraud. This is because he is convinced such phenomena are impossible. This is not an open-minded approach and if adopted may well inhibit phenomena and create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Whilst I agree exposing fraud is definitely a positive thing, Randi is no friend of genuine mediums.

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Post by dont-like-frauds on Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:18 pm

Lis wrote:

Hi don't-like-frauds,

Thanks for clarifying about the use of trumpet phenomena in Muegge's séances.

Interesting that Lucius Werthmuller allowed a magician into a Bill Meadow's séance. I wonder why he bothered if he then was 'convinced' by KM not to publish the magician's considered statement about what they thought of the performance.

Hi Lis,

for me it just prooves how good Kai Mügge can handle people for his intentions.

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Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:15 pm

Admin wrote:In my days as the Great Zardini, on the Magic Café Forum, as a part of a debate about magicians escaping cable ties and producing the performances that were being written about in the descriptions of contemporary dark seances, it became clear that almost all on that forum felt they could do this. They could escape, retie themselves and produce all of the effects, some were sure that they could even, by knowing who was attending the event and seating them, give survival evidence; collected beforehand.

The real issue for them was not about being able to; but to what purpose it was. The art of a magician is to produce these effects while people are watching, they needed the light because to do this in the dark was pointless, no one would see their skill in operation. So whilst they could work like this, in the dark, it would be a waste of time. Indeed who would pay to see a magician perform in the dark!

Anyway the Wizard of the North, Anderson, Houdin (not Houdini), Maskelyne (and many more) perfected the magic shows of lights, musical instruments, etc. long ago leaving many records and books about their work.

As we well know, from all our research with Marc, this type of mediumship has been well exposed; over many years. There is no doubt the Davenports were so frequently caught that they changed their act from pseudo Spiritualist Séance to mystery act (albeit many Spiritualists continued to try and credit their work to Spirit). Anna Eva Fay, after her many exposures, from Spiritualist Séance to Vaudeville (while becoming a very close friend of Houdini to the level at which she was the first honorary female associate of the Magic Circle).

It is harder to find genuine examples of this type of "mediumship" than fraudulent ones (as we know when Jonathan Koons worked away from his Spirit House he was caught in fraud). Probably the most believable examples were DD Home's work in the testing by Sir William Crookes. But Home himself agreed with Cox and Crookes that this was the "Psychic Force" at work not the power of Spirit.



Sadly magicians can be the enemy of mediums, one may see why Kai would think this, but why are they? Some great magicians still could not discredit the very best mediums of the past. Even David Abbott was left pondering a few examples he came across.


I do agrre that DD home was "Psychic Force" at work not the power of Spirit.- and that is what is coming out to day- not a spirit in sight Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge - Page 11 382644
Jane Lyzell
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Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:18 pm

Jane Lyzell wrote:
Admin wrote:In my days as the Great Zardini, on the Magic Café Forum, as a part of a debate about magicians escaping cable ties and producing the performances that were being written about in the descriptions of contemporary dark seances, it became clear that almost all on that forum felt they could do this. They could escape, retie themselves and produce all of the effects, some were sure that they could even, by knowing who was attending the event and seating them, give survival evidence; collected beforehand.

The real issue for them was not about being able to; but to what purpose it was. The art of a magician is to produce these effects while people are watching, they needed the light because to do this in the dark was pointless, no one would see their skill in operation. So whilst they could work like this, in the dark, it would be a waste of time. Indeed who would pay to see a magician perform in the dark!

Anyway the Wizard of the North, Anderson, Houdin (not Houdini), Maskelyne (and many more) perfected the magic shows of lights, musical instruments, etc. long ago leaving many records and books about their work.

As we well know, from all our research with Marc, this type of mediumship has been well exposed; over many years. There is no doubt the Davenports were so frequently caught that they changed their act from pseudo Spiritualist Séance to mystery act (albeit many Spiritualists continued to try and credit their work to Spirit). Anna Eva Fay, after her many exposures, from Spiritualist Séance to Vaudeville (while becoming a very close friend of Houdini to the level at which she was the first honorary female associate of the Magic Circle).

It is harder to find genuine examples of this type of "mediumship" than fraudulent ones (as we know when Jonathan Koons worked away from his Spirit House he was caught in fraud). Probably the most believable examples were DD Home's work in the testing by Sir William Crookes. But Home himself agreed with Cox and Crookes that this was the "Psychic Force" at work not the power of Spirit.



Sadly magicians can be the enemy of mediums, one may see why Kai would think this, but why are they? Some great magicians still could not discredit the very best mediums of the past. Even David Abbott was left pondering a few examples he came across.


I do agrre that DD home was "Psychic Force" at work not the power of Spirit.- and that is what is coming out to day- not a spirit in sight Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge - Page 11 382644

If it's in the dark there's nothing in sight. Period.

obiwan


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Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:24 pm

Aggre- exept fore independet direkt voyce as leslie Flint
Jane Lyzell
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Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:57 pm

Jane Lyzell wrote:Aggre- exept fore independet direkt voyce as leslie Flint
You don't neeed to see anything then Very Happy

obiwan


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Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:08 pm

exakly just hear farao
Jane Lyzell
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