Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

dont-like-frauds wrote:

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Let´s see. My wife always says: "time will bring solution"...she´s thai and i must admit, that i underestimate their wisdom much too long...
Oh, i´ve just seen a lovely smiley:

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.
Y
Just a thought.

That´s so true what you´re writing.
I would add to what makes sth. like this running, is the fact if you join in open-minded, with an open heart, with much credit even if the actor occurs a little bit special and if one has had most of the time only good experiences with spirit and the people involved. And: curiosity! And being part of something special! And the believe to be in contact with spirit more directly than ever in an „easy way“
Maybe one could even say: too much uncritical and a little bit too foolish.
I can remember Kai writing in his „internal“ emails to his „cultmembers“ as a joke. But a joke contains most of the time so much truth. And we laugh before we cry.
Long time ago, i´ve watched a tv dokumentation about a long haired man, finally leaving a cult and he said (and he actually doesn´t look like this): „i could never imagine, that i could join a cult“. I thought, yes how stupid must one be....The last three years i´ve had time enough to look in the mirror...

mac wrote:

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

Hi obi - I'm doing OK thanks other than being embroiled in something similar on another website concerning honesty but in connection with erstwhile member here, Waller Joel.  

If you recall he disappeared from this website after being accused of being the troll MU!! but he's established himself online elsewhere as an expert on various matters spiritual.  I've watched there with concern but my expressing doubts about his authenticity and honesty led to a very hostile reaction from someone persuaded he's the 'real deal', forgetting or ignoring his similarities of behaviour to the troll who created mayhem on that website last year.  If he's not the same guy the similarities are remarkable!

In such situations as we see with KM (or WJ) whadya do?  Should we be concerned if conmen dupe the vulnerable and the willing?  Or just leave them to fend for themselves or enjoy the ride when they're willing participants?  Mostly concerned folk don't like others being taken advantage of so I think it's reasonable that we feel as we do about KM and that I feel as I do about WJ.  

If eventually we're proven wrong about either of the guys I'm prepared to admit it.

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:
It is also possible that some mediums mix genuine phenomena with fraud.

I don´t really believe this. A genuine medium includes IMO truthfulness. There´s no reason to risk this.
This "mixed medium discussion" describes IMO the rearguard action of someone being debunked or on the way being debunked.
Maybe it´s a kind way to send cheaters home. Yes, why not?

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:
It is also possible that some mediums mix genuine phenomena with fraud.

I don´t really believe this. A genuine medium includes IMO truthfulness. There´s no reason to risk this.
This "mixed medium discussion" describes IMO the rearguard action of someone being debunked or on the way being debunked.
Maybe it´s a kind way to send cheaters home. Yes, why not?

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

Hi obi - I'm doing OK thanks other than being embroiled in something similar on another website concerning honesty but in connection with erstwhile member here, Waller Joel.  

If you recall he disappeared from this website after being accused of being the troll MU!! but he's established himself online elsewhere as an expert on various matters spiritual.  I've watched there with concern but my expressing doubts about his authenticity and honesty led to a very hostile reaction from someone persuaded he's the 'real deal', forgetting or ignoring his similarities of behaviour to the troll who created mayhem on that website last year.  If he's not the same guy the similarities are remarkable!

In such situations as we see with KM (or WJ) whadya do?  Should we be concerned if conmen dupe the vulnerable and the willing?  Or just leave them to fend for themselves or enjoy the ride when they're willing participants?  Mostly concerned folk don't like others being taken advantage of so I think it's reasonable that we feel as we do about KM and that I feel as I do about WJ.  

If eventually we're proven wrong about either of the guys I'm prepared to admit it.

Sounds like you're doing what you think is right Mac. Who can do more? Don't use too much energy on it.
As a friend of mine once observed:"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, on the other hand, at least it knows where the water is if it gets thirsty"

dont-like-frauds wrote:

obiwan wrote:

I understand your view.

There  does however seem to be some evidence to support the idea; investigators of the medium Eusapia Palladino found both genuine phenomena and fraud. She even admitted that she would cheat if permitted.

It may also be possible that mediums 'misbehave' when under the control of some other entity and exhibit fraudulent behaviour over which they have no control. I am not saying it is the case with KM but simply that it cannot always be ruled out.

I can understand people who take the position that once a medium is caught in fraud, that's the end of the matter. On the other hand one could argue that knowing a person has or may commit fraud, one can make provisions in the controls to reduce or eliminate the risk of this.

I just prefer to go to the circus then or attend a good magician show - it´s easier, cheaper, more honest and better concerning the tricks!
If i were spirit, i wouldn´t choose a "mixed medium" - it´s just a waste of time and energy....

mac wrote:

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:

obiwan wrote:

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

Hi obi - I'm doing OK thanks other than being embroiled in something similar on another website concerning honesty but in connection with erstwhile member here, Waller Joel.  

If you recall he disappeared from this website after being accused of being the troll MU!! but he's established himself online elsewhere as an expert on various matters spiritual.  I've watched there with concern but my expressing doubts about his authenticity and honesty led to a very hostile reaction from someone persuaded he's the 'real deal', forgetting or ignoring his similarities of behaviour to the troll who created mayhem on that website last year.  If he's not the same guy the similarities are remarkable!

In such situations as we see with KM (or WJ) whadya do?  Should we be concerned if conmen dupe the vulnerable and the willing?  Or just leave them to fend for themselves or enjoy the ride when they're willing participants?  Mostly concerned folk don't like others being taken advantage of so I think it's reasonable that we feel as we do about KM and that I feel as I do about WJ.  

If eventually we're proven wrong about either of the guys I'm prepared to admit it.

Sounds like you're doing what you think is right Mac. Who can do more? Don't use too much energy on it.
As a friend of mine once observed:"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, on the other hand, at least it knows where the water is if it gets thirsty"

I hope I'm doing the right thing, obi. It's not easy getting the balance right between standing up and being counted - even when I get in trouble - and standing back and leaving a situation where folk are being suckered...  I had avoided spending any energy on the issue for a couple of months or so but eventually I thought I had to say my piece as I find it hard to keep my mouth shut all the time!  I had some support but there's a lot going on behind the scenes so I've backed away again for a time to let the dust settle.  

Time will tell if I get involved again...  

LeroyC wrote:Hi all,

And so it rumbles on !!. Got an idea Mr Mugge. I hear that Hans Bender is a prominent control in this circle. From the information I have he has a daughter living. Why not invite her to the circle to have, if possible, an 'extended conversation' with her father. I am sure she could confirm this spirits idnentity and possibly raise issues only she and her father knew about ??.

How about it ??...Is this circle up to that challenge ?. It may help establish some credibility which is rapidly ebbing away.

LeroyC

dont-like-frauds wrote: 
For a long time I believed in Kai Mügge. I trusted him, and defended him. However, there were things that I observed in the séance room, things I learned from Kai Mügge himself about his past, and concerns about medication that he seemed to take on a daily basis, that caused me to begin to doubt that Kai’s mediumship was genuine.