a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Thu Jan 08, 2015 4:48 pm

Admin wrote:
obiwan wrote: There's no shame in trusting people initially.

Indeed Obi, the initial work on the Scole appeared quite normal, even if it was trying to approach physical mediumship in a different way. It was that which was investigated. I feel fairly sure that the latter events would never have received any positive feedback from the researchers. The big issue is the attempt to associate the valid research (well I know that despite the expertise of the researchers even this has been challenged in retrospect) over the whole experiment not just the part it actually covered to give what appears, logically, to be near madness at the close an aura of validity.

I still accept the early results as valid and good examples of paranormal activity - there was no reason to doubt them and some of the results were pretty remarkable.  But as with all physical phenomena, by themselves they should have been seen only as waymarkers along a path leading to something rather more substantial and significant.  In isolation they do not constitute mediumship even though - confusingly - a physical medium is seen as a prerequisite for producing at least some of them.  

And it appears that nowadays 'phenomenalism' and mediumship are often conflated in the minds of (some of) those seeking them out.

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Left Behind on Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:13 pm

Physical mediumship was and is a wonderful thing in its day, and when it works legitimately. But with all allegations of fraud that have been leveled at it over the years. . . is it perhaps not a thing of the past? Is spirit really working in this manner today? Is this project really worth the investment?

And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?

Left Behind


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:46 pm

long time, no see, J  Smile

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:53 pm

Left Behind wrote:Physical mediumship was and is a wonderful thing in its day, and when it works legitimately. But with all allegations of fraud that have been leveled at it over the years. . . is it perhaps not a thing of the past? Is spirit really working in this manner today? Is this project really worth the investment?

And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?

Is it not a thing of the past?  Yes but it has as  much relevance now as ever.  Is 'spirit' working in this manner today?  yes  Is this project (AFC?) really worth the investment?   yes

"And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?"  Revelation? no  But it has the potential for uniquely dramatic evidence.

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Left Behind on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:07 am

mac wrote:long time, no see, J  Smile

I figured it was time for me to come back and annoy everyone again, Mac! Laughing

Left Behind


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Admin on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:09 am

Welcome back.. Very Happy
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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Left Behind on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:30 am

Thank you, Jim. Smile

Left Behind


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Left Behind on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:33 am

mac wrote:

"And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?"  Revelation? no  But it has the potential for uniquely dramatic evidence.


But I wonder, given the scanty resources available, whether we wouldn't reach more people with our message, via mental mediumship?

Left Behind


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by obiwan on Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:39 am

mac wrote:
Left Behind wrote:Physical mediumship was and is a wonderful thing in its day, and when it works legitimately. But with all allegations of fraud that have been leveled at it over the years. . . is it perhaps not a thing of the past? Is spirit really working in this manner today? Is this project really worth the investment?

And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?

Is it not a thing of the past?  Yes but it has as  much relevance now as ever.  Is 'spirit' working in this manner today?  yes  Is this project (AFC?) really worth the investment?   yes

"And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?"  Revelation? no  But it has the potential for uniquely dramatic evidence.
Mental mediumship (I am assuming clairvoyance is meant here as some forms of trance mediumship seem to me potentially evidential) is equally  vulnerable to fraud iMHO. For example cold reading. It does not have the evidential potential of the independent direct voice imo.

obiwan


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:32 pm

Left Behind wrote:
mac wrote:

"And does it really offer anything in the way of real revelation from the spirit world that we can't find in mental mediumship?"  Revelation? no  But it has the potential for uniquely dramatic evidence.


But I wonder, given the scanty resources available, whether we wouldn't reach more people with our message, via mental mediumship?

Sadly that doesn't seem to have been the case for some time.

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:33 pm

Left Behind wrote:
mac wrote:long time, no see, J  Smile

I figured it was time for me to come back and annoy everyone again, Mac! Laughing

I shall look forward to that. Laughing

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by synaxis on Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:25 pm

National Geographic published a book last fall: Glimpsing Heaven: The Stories and Science of Life After Death by Judy Bachrach. In addition to interesting “death experience” anecdotes she also interviewed medical researchers such as Sam Parnia and others who are focusing on the experience of cardiac arrest survivors. It struck me that the future of evidential "proof" of life after death may be in this direction, i.e. based on technological advancements in resuscitation.

The problem otherwise, which the members of this forum are well aware of, is the decline or even collapse of the practice of the home circle, which is the seedbed of the development of mediumship. I agree with obiwan re: the evidential value of independent direct voice (which I’ve never witnessed). But the ‘infrastructure’ that would support the emergence of direct voice mediums of the calibre of Emily French, John Sloan, and Leslie Flint seems pretty much altogether lacking these days.

synaxis


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:34 pm

From my experience on other websites, members are often more interested in, or persuaded by, accounts of OBEs and NDEs along with those from so-called Past Life regression and/or therapy. Plus, of course, psychism as seen on TV.  

Traditional mediumship of whatever flavor doesn't seem to cut muster with them and neither do the teachings found in Modern Spiritualism - believe me I've tried offering them!

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by synaxis on Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:53 pm

mac wrote:From my experience on other websites, members are often more interested in, or persuaded by, accounts of OBEs and NDEs along with those from so-called Past Life regression and/or therapy.  Plus, of course, psychism as seen on TV.  

Traditional mediumship of whatever flavor doesn't seem to cut muster with them and neither do the teachings found in Modern Spiritualism - believe me I've tried offering them!


Hi mac - I think the underlying issue here is the evidential quality of contemporary “traditional mediumship”, which has declined quite significantly from the golden age of Spiritualism. In view of this decline, perhaps folks are quite right in being more interested in and/or persuaded by accounts of OBEs and NDEs, etc. If the quality of the evidence from resuscitation cases, etc. is better, then it is reasonable to find that evidence more persuasive.

synaxis


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Neilos on Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:27 pm

I disagree because I have experienced independent direct voice with a developing physical medium that provided excellent evidence. This was in a home circle BTW.

Neilos


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Left Behind on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:36 pm

Certainly, excellent work is being accomplished by such people as Sam Parnia, Raymond Moody, and Eben Alexander, in the NDE realm. When I began my own search for answers to the question of survivalism, it was to the NDE that I turned. I had heard of Spiritualism but was under the impression that it was a Victorian era hoax that had been debunked. How shocked I was to learn that there were people who still believed in it!

And yet. . . that shock was nothing, compared to the shock I received when mediums began to provide me with uncontrovertible evidence that my own deceased friends and family members were still 'alive'! Shocked

NDE study lead me into Spiritualism. NDE study provided evidence of survival: but, not having undergone an NDE myself, it was still second-hand evidence - someone else's experience recounted to me - just as we could find in any religion.


Last edited by Left Behind on Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

Left Behind


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Left Behind on Fri Jan 09, 2015 5:40 pm

synaxis wrote:

Hi mac - I think the underlying issue here is the evidential quality of contemporary “traditional mediumship”, which has declined quite significantly from the golden age of Spiritualism. In view of this decline, perhaps folks are quite right in being more interested in and/or persuaded by accounts of OBEs and NDEs, etc. If the quality of the evidence from resuscitation cases, etc. is better, then it is reasonable to find that evidence more persuasive.
[/color]


But which one would you find more convincing: reading about someone who tells you that he died, went to the next world, and met his deceased grandmother?

Or having a medium provide you with information from your own deceased grandmother: information that could not have come from any other source but her?

Left Behind


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:53 pm

synaxis wrote:
mac wrote:From my experience on other websites, members are often more interested in, or persuaded by, accounts of OBEs and NDEs along with those from so-called Past Life regression and/or therapy.  Plus, of course, psychism as seen on TV.  

Traditional mediumship of whatever flavor doesn't seem to cut muster with them and neither do the teachings found in Modern Spiritualism - believe me I've tried offering them!


Hi mac - I think the underlying issue here is the evidential quality of contemporary “traditional mediumship”, which has declined quite significantly from the golden age of Spiritualism. In view of this decline, perhaps folks are quite right in being more interested in and/or persuaded by accounts of OBEs and NDEs, etc. If the quality of the evidence from resuscitation cases, etc. is better, then it is reasonable to find that evidence more persuasive.

Oh I can't disagree with any of that but what's then missing is any context for what is experienced or heard about. That doesn't, though, seem to bother many when I point it out so if they're happy with their situation, who am I to say it's wrong?

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:57 pm

Left Behind wrote:
synaxis wrote:

Hi mac - I think the underlying issue here is the evidential quality of contemporary “traditional mediumship”, which has declined quite significantly from the golden age of Spiritualism. In view of this decline, perhaps folks are quite right in being more interested in and/or persuaded by accounts of OBEs and NDEs, etc. If the quality of the evidence from resuscitation cases, etc. is better, then it is reasonable to find that evidence more persuasive.
[/color]


But which one would you find more convincing: reading about someone who tells you that he died, went to the next world, and met his deceased grandmother?

Or having a medium provide you with information from your own deceased grandmother: information that could not have come from any other source but her?

Conviction comes in different ways for different people. I haven't had the personal evidence that might be demanded by others yet what I have experienced has left me with surety. Chaqu'un a son choix.

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by obiwan on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Left Behind wrote:
synaxis wrote:

Hi mac - I think the underlying issue here is the evidential quality of contemporary “traditional mediumship”, which has declined quite significantly from the golden age of Spiritualism. In view of this decline, perhaps folks are quite right in being more interested in and/or persuaded by accounts of OBEs and NDEs, etc. If the quality of the evidence from resuscitation cases, etc. is better, then it is reasonable to find that evidence more persuasive.
[/color]


But which one would you find more convincing: reading about someone who tells you that he died, went to the next world, and met his deceased grandmother?

Or having a medium provide you with information from your own deceased grandmother: information that could not have come from any other source but her?

It seems to me that well-documented OBEs add to the body of evidence, however there aren't many of those. I don't see any harm in them from a personal point of view, like ghost stories really however without some kind of supporting evidence, I'd agree they don't have much evidential value for anyone other than the person experiencing them.

obiwan


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:29 pm

Neilos wrote:I disagree because I have experienced independent direct voice with a developing physical medium that provided excellent evidence. This was in a home circle BTW.

Would that we all could experience such solid mediumship. The best that most 'ordinary' folk may hope for is an experienced mental evidential medium and if they get it they're doing pretty well.

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Neilos on Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Well it is out there Mac and I agree that home circles are far better in evidential mediumship.

Neilos


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by mac on Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:32 am

Neilos wrote:Well it is out there Mac and I  agree that home circles are far better in evidential mediumship.

Yes it's out there but rather like the truth, it can be difficult to find. Home circles may well be a better place to find evidential mediumship but they're few and far between even in the UK and elsewhere in the world may be all but impossible to find let alone gain access to. For many/most a visit to a recommended practitioner may be the best they'll get and/or a public demonstration. Both are capable of providing a similar level of evidence and for those who receive it perhaps every bit as good as via any other way....

mac


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Neilos on Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:28 am

I find there is a sense of general cynicism regarding modern physical mediumship on this page and members lament the golden era of our past. It's like watching Luddites discuss new technologies lol! Not all of the modern physical mediums are frauds nor is everyone on the Internet deceitful. In my experience mental mediumship generally is of a poor quality and just as hard to find as a good home circle that invites guests. I still prefer to hunt for the circle rather than sit and moan in a state of almost learned helplessness.

Neilos


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Re: a grand - or grandiose? - vision?

Post by Lis on Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:49 am

Neilos wrote:I find there is a sense of general cynicism regarding modern physical mediumship on this page and members lament the golden era of our past. It's like watching Luddites discuss new technologies lol! Not all of the modern physical mediums are frauds nor is everyone on the Internet deceitful. In my experience mental mediumship generally is of a poor quality and just as hard to find as a good home circle that invites guests. I still prefer to hunt for the circle rather than sit and moan in a state of almost learned helplessness.

Well, Neilos, from my perspective there is a very good reason for "general cynicism regarding modern physical mediumship" - both the standard of it and its capacity to provide any genuine proof of survival is all too sadly lacking in many, many cases - and in others there is little doubt it is nothing but fraudulent deception today.

I don't however, "lament the golden era of our past" as you suggest, nor do, I believe, others on this forum do. What we lament is the fact that what goes on today under the heading of "physical mediumship" is so riddled with fraud, and dubious and uncertain practices.

As for your "Luddites" remark, I personally find it offensive. I do not believe the positions expressed on this form in any way represent an attempt to obstruct progress. Quite the contrary, it seeks to encourage progress, whether that be through the use of modern technology such as infrared or thermography or the use of some other source of light in the séance room in order that suspicion, doubt and potential fraud can be removed, and the genuine can be seen.

With regard, however, to your comment regarding the poor quality of mental mediumship, I can only concur. The current trend for what can only be described as the "fishing net" approach as demonstrated in so many venues in the UK and progressively here in Australia as the UK trained mediums visit and attempt to train the mediums here along the same lines, is undoubtedly reducing the standard of mental mediumship to a point where all to often it just looks like some sort of guessing game performance.

So, if it is "Luddite"-like to look back at what mediums (mental or physical) could do in the past, and to wish that standard was still operative today, then, on reflection, I am, in that respect, willing to be a Luddite. On the other hand, perhaps if the mediums of today actually went back to the approach used in the past, a great deal more progress might be made.

Lis
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