Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

by Neilos Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:02 pm

I agree with you there. If mediumship does not lead to personal responsibility and a spiritual life it is pointless in my mind.

by dont-like-frauds Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:15 pm

Neilos wrote:If mediumship does not lead to personal responsibility and a spiritual life it is pointless in my mind.

This is the key sentence and should be framed!!! levitating

by Jane Lyzell Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:54 pm

http://elfvinginstitute.org/2014/12/07/stephen-braude-exclusively-on-elfvinginstitutes-blog/

by Lis Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:17 pm

Hi Jane,
Thanks for the link to the Stephen Braude article.

Two things about what he has said that concern me:

1. While acknowledging he believes that KM has cheated on occasion, he isn't concerned about it because in the past some mediums have cheated even though they could also produce genuine phenomena. This line of argument always disturbs me. Mediums of the past, such as Palladino, whom Braude mentions, certainly cheated when they could get away with it, but this highlighted the nature of that person's character, and lack of essential integrity. In short they were not a very moral person. There is also another difference between Palladino and KM - she was not holding endless séances for large sums of money while cheating.

There has always been a significant debate over the value we should place on mediums who are known to have cheated. Should we merely acknowledge their lack of ethical, and moral integrity but continue to investigate them, or attend their séances, or should we say a medium who cheats does not deserve our further attention. A cheat is a cheat - who needs them.

2. The phenomena that Braude seems to still consider genuine are the phenomena of table tilting and movement of objects at a distance. The most base and simplistic phenomena about which there is significant debate as to their origins. Many do not believe that such phenomena has anything to do with spirit - and it is evidence of spirit that we should really be interested in. Personally, I know that it is possible to produce such physical phenomena without there being any spirit involvement. Perhaps, since Braude is interested in parapsychology he really is not all that bothered about whether what goes on in KMs séances have anything to do with spirit or evidence of survival.

In that respect, I must take a different view to Braude. If what goes on in the séance room is not about providing evidence of survival - forget it.

by mac Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:29 pm

Lis wrote:Hi Jane,
Thanks for the link to the Stephen Braude article.

Two things about what he has said that concern me:

1. While acknowledging he believes that KM has cheated on occasion, he isn't concerned about it because in the past some mediums have cheated even though they could also produce genuine phenomena. This line of argument always disturbs me. Mediums of the past, such as Palladino, whom Braude mentions, certainly cheated when they could get away with it, but this highlighted the nature of that person's character, and lack of essential integrity. In short they were not a very moral person. There is also another difference between Palladino and KM - she was not holding endless séances for large sums of money while cheating.

There has always been a significant debate over the value we should place on mediums who are known to have cheated. Should we merely acknowledge their lack of ethical, and moral integrity but continue to investigate them, or attend their séances, or should we say a medium who cheats does not deserve our further attention. A cheat is a cheat - who needs them.

2. The phenomena that Braude seems to still consider genuine are the phenomena of table tilting and movement of objects at a distance. The most base and simplistic phenomena about which there is significant debate as to their origins. Many do not believe that such phenomena has anything to do with spirit - and it is evidence of spirit that we should really be interested in. Personally, I know that it is possible to produce such physical phenomena without there being any spirit involvement. Perhaps, since Braude is interested in parapsychology he really is not all that bothered about whether what goes on in KMs séances have anything to do with spirit or evidence of survival.

In that respect, I must take a different view to Braude. If what goes on in the séance room is not about providing evidence of survival - forget it.

In that simple last paragraph may be the key to many issues.... Some seekers are not particularly interested in the issue of survival and/or the demonstration of it via evidential mediumship. From what I've read elsewhere it's almost as if any interrelation of the two is incidental and unimportant to some, perhaps many, seekers and researchers.

by Jane Lyzell Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:46 pm

Lis wrote:Hi Jane,
Thanks for the link to the Stephen Braude article.

Two things about what he has said that concern me:

1. While acknowledging he believes that KM has cheated on occasion, he isn't concerned about it because in the past some mediums have cheated even though they could also produce genuine phenomena. This line of argument always disturbs me. Mediums of the past, such as Palladino, whom Braude mentions, certainly cheated when they could get away with it, but this highlighted the nature of that person's character, and lack of essential integrity. In short they were not a very moral person. There is also another difference between Palladino and KM - she was not holding endless séances for large sums of money while cheating.

There has always been a significant debate over the value we should place on mediums who are known to have cheated. Should we merely acknowledge their lack of ethical, and moral integrity but continue to investigate them, or attend their séances, or should we say a medium who cheats does not deserve our further attention. A cheat is a cheat - who needs them.

2. The phenomena that Braude seems to still consider genuine are the phenomena of table tilting and movement of objects at a distance. The most base and simplistic phenomena about which there is significant debate as to their origins. Many do not believe that such phenomena has anything to do with spirit - and it is evidence of spirit that we should really be interested in. Personally, I know that it is possible to produce such physical phenomena without there being any spirit involvement. Perhaps, since Braude is interested in parapsychology he really is not all that bothered about whether what goes on in KMs séances have anything to do with spirit or evidence of survival.

In that respect, I must take a different view to Braude. If what goes on in the séance room is not about providing evidence of survival - forget it.

totaly agree " a medium who cheats does not deserve our further attention. A cheat is a cheat - who needs them." and " If what goes on in the séance room is not about providing evidence of survival - forget it"

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:19 am

Jane Lyzell wrote:http://elfvinginstitute.org/2014/12/07/stephen-braude-exclusively-on-elfvinginstitutes-blog/

Hi Jane, thank you for the link. I just want to post this interview, because it is easier to quote and still the "original" version in case some words of Braude could be changed, if this is ok for the admin:

Stephen Braudes great examination of Physical mediumship

Stephen Braude is Emeritus Professor of Philosophy, parapsychologist and former president of the Paranormal Association, PA.

CAMILLA: Hi dear Stephen Braude,
In regards to the investigation with physical medium Kai Muegge, whats Your story?

STEPHEN: For reasons discussed in detail in my paper in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, I believe that Kai has employed a magic trick on at least a few occasions in the past. And Michael Nahm, in the companion article to mine in the JSE, raises some serious allegations about some of Kai’s other phenomena. However, I have not found any compelling reason for thinking that Kai could have cheated in the carefully controlled seances conducted under my supervision, especially those in Austria in 2013. It’s true that the evidence, even in those best cases, is not as strong as in the very best cases of physical mediumship from the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. But I remain especially impressed and intrigued by the evidence we have so far for table levitations and objects moving at a distance from the medium (while the medium is under intrusive control). The ectoplasmic manifestations still need better controls, along the lines mentioned in my paper.

CAMILLA: Did you even consult some stage magicians to have their views?

STEPHEN: No magicians were present at sittings I conducted, although magicians have indeed sat with Kai. I’ve consulted several renowned magicians about the case, none of whom have yet given me reason for dismissing the phenomena I’ve found most intriguing, and who in some cases have supported my reasons for thinking that at least some of the phenomena are genuine.

I’ll add that I personally have no problem with the possibility that Kai might have used trickery on some occasions. Many of the greatest mediums have done so, for understandable (though not necessarily forgivable) reasons, and the fact remains that under the very tightest controls in those classic cases, it’s clear that no fraud was involved when phenomena occurred (perhaps the best example of this is the case of Eusapia Palladino).

As far as I’m concerned, from what we know now about Kai, he may yet deserve to be added to that exalted class of mediums, but not until he agrees to even better video documentation (with more cameras and better lighting) and tighter controls for ectoplasmic manifestations.

I’m hoping Kai will agree to another series in Austria. In my view, Kai still has the chance to demonstrate to the public (and not just to his loyal and uncritical spiritist followers) that he’s a genuine physical medium. I believe that Kai should have little or no problem reproducing the table and object-movement phenomena under better conditions, and I’d be delighted to help Kai remove the cloud that now hangs over his mediumship. I encourage your readers to examine both Nahm’s JSE paper and mine for the full story.

CAMILLA: What do you consider, in general, about Physical mediumship? And perhaps the Scole Experiment in particular?

STEPHEN: I wrote an entire book on the subject (The Limits of Influence) and had a lot to say about it in another book (The Gold Leaf Lady). I believe there are some utterly convincing cases of phenomena produced under much better controls than Kai has so far permitted e.g., the cases of D.D. Home, Eusapia Palladino, and Rudi Schneider. The Scole investigation, while certainly interesting, is not in that class.
Kai undoubtedly has been more willing to submit to serious controls than any other current medium, but for the reasons discussed in my JSE article, more needs to be done (though we’re getting very close to what we need!), and I sincerely hope Kai will continue to cooperate with me. I want this to happen both for him and for science.

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:26 am

dont-like-frauds wrote:
In my view, Kai still has the chance to demonstrate to the public (and not just to his loyal and uncritical spiritist followers) that he’s a genuine physical medium.

A very interesting sentence.
Where is Braude´s critical distance as a "scientist", when he assumes, that Mügge is a genuine physical medium?
What makes Braude believe, that he is not a "believer" of Mügge?
What are his criterias to classify a "loyal and uncritical spiritist follower"?
Does Braude maybe thinks, he is something better?

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:32 am

dont-like-frauds wrote:

I’ll add that I personally have no problem with the possibility that Kai might have used trickery on some occasions.

In other words, Braude doesn´t have a problem, that Mügge commits crime?
Does Braude ever thought about the fact, that he supports crime with his view?
Would Braude be ready to give the people their money back, not only the "spiritist followers", an obviously kind of second class people for him?

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:44 am

I´ve got Braude known one time, when he visited the felixcircle in Hanau. He introduced himself as "Hi, i´m Stephen Braude, but you can call me fuckface, too, it doesn´t matter..." This is an interesting view for taking oneself not so serious. (Sorry for the word, but i´m just quoting...)
Braude knows, that the actual circleleader (a very big follower of Braude) doesn´t want to be mentioned publicly with Mügge and his activities anymore. Braude informed the circleleader, that i´ve mentioned the circleleader´s (faked) name in my blog http://last-exit-felixcircle.blogspot.de/ . And because of the wish of the circleleader, i´ve deleted his (faked) name. What is with Mügge? He still mentiones the (faked) name of the circleleader on his blog together with even a few pictures of him. Doesn´t Mügge know about the concerns of his circleleader or does he just don´t care?

by Lis Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:48 am

dont-like-frauds wrote:
dont-like-frauds wrote:

I’ll add that I personally have no problem with the possibility that Kai might have used trickery on some occasions.

In other words, Braude doesn´t have a problem, that Mügge commits crime?
Does Braude ever thought about the fact, that he supports crime with his view?
Would Braude be ready to give the people their money back, not only the "spiritist followers", an obviously kind of second class people for him?

Hi don't-like-frauds,

Exactly my concern - that Braude appears to actually be condoning the use of fraud. He may not have a problem with KM cheating - but his attitude does not put Braude in a very good light does it? He can hardly call himself an objective investigator using a scientific approach in his investigations of KMs so called mediumship.

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:59 am

Lis wrote:

2. The phenomena that Braude seems to still consider genuine are the phenomena of table tilting and movement of objects at a distance. The most base and simplistic phenomena about which there is significant debate as to their origins. Many do not believe that such phenomena has anything to do with spirit - and it is evidence of spirit that we should really be interested in.

That´s it, Lis!
And if i understood it right, it was Hans Bender himself, who considered such phenomenas as "Poltergeist" activities always connected to a "strange" person as an origin and Bender´s work was to proove that.
So Mügge actually ridicules the real Hans Bender in pretending, that Bender comes back "through him (Mügge)" and saying, that he (Bender) allegedly was wrong about the non-exitence of an afterlife to be prooved with Mügge´s "channeling".
What else is this than a denigration to the memory of the deceased? Kai Mügge has no respect at all and drags the deceased Hans Bender in the mud in this way.

by Neilos Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:58 pm

Still doesn't explain my experiences of sitting with Kai which I believe was genuine. I saw web like ectoplasm, a pulsing putty like substance, the ecto hand that waved plus a approx 4' tower that grew from the floor which was observed in red light. The Halloween cobwebs theory cannot account for what I experienced. I was stood behind the mediums wife's chair and was about 6' away from the cabinet with quite a unique perspective as I could observe the phenomena from the side rather than front.

by mac Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:26 pm

Neilos wrote:Still doesn't explain my experiences of sitting with Kai which I believe was genuine. I saw web like ectoplasm, a pulsing putty like substance, the ecto hand that waved plus a approx 4' tower that grew from the floor which was observed in red light. The Halloween cobwebs theory cannot account for what I experienced. I was stood behind the mediums wife's chair and was about 6' away from the cabinet with quite a unique perspective as I could observe the phenomena from the side rather than front.

Perhaps it truly is the so-called mixed mediumship situation that applies to KM?

Sometimes he produces genuine phenomena but at others he appears to give a different performance, one in which props are used. A horses-for-courses approach....

by Neilos Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:34 pm

Quite possible Mac...the video showing the thumb that appears to manipulate the red light is hard to discount.

by mac Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:28 pm

Neilos wrote:Quite possible Mac...the video showing the thumb that appears to manipulate the red light is hard to discount.

Yes I agree - the D'Lite Flight - a bargain at $50 - appears to perform just like the light in the seance movie. A great party trick but wholly inappropriate in the forum of claimed physical mediumship - it's hard to figure what legitimate use there could ever be for such a prop.

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:37 pm

Neilos wrote:Still doesn't explain my experiences of sitting with Kai which I believe was genuine. I saw web like ectoplasm, a pulsing putty like substance, the ecto hand that waved plus a approx 4' tower that grew from the floor which was observed in red light. The Halloween cobwebs theory cannot account for what I experienced. I was stood behind the mediums wife's chair and was about 6' away from the cabinet with quite a unique perspective as I could observe the phenomena from the side rather than front.

It´s a trap to believe sth. could be genuine, because one can´t explain the trick. But i can understand you. Many people are in the same situation and unfortunatly only a few have left this trap behind them. It blocks emotionally not to know, how it works. One doesn´t want to do sth. wrong to someone. Knowing and using this, Mügge additionally i.e. presents his many supportes on his blog to make one believe he´s genuine. So many people can´t be wrong...And at a certain point this all becomes a fast- selling item.
You get closer to the truth, when you consider the fact, that the trance is faked. In Michael Nahm´s report and on my blog http://last-exit-felixcircle.blogspot.de/ you can see, that at least one part of the performance is faked. The pictures are very clear. This makes it very, very reasonable, that the rest of the cabinetshow is faked, too. Including the allegedly ectoplasm. Both „appeared“ in the same performance. Mixed mediumship? One time he „produces real ectoplasm“ and sometimes he only uses spiderweb? Why? Hello? What would „normal“ people say, if you tell them this story? What does common sense say?
If the admin allows and you want, i can post you the 11 paged bibliography of Lamar Keene´s „psychic mafia“. I´m just finished reading this book. All about fake and how to do. I´m sure you´ll find sth. which explains the trickery to you, too, if this is so important. It looks like that this all is an century old fake business, which Mügge just reanimated quite well. He had time enough in his workless past to study this all. I don´t have the time to do this and actually i´m not interested anymore to know in details how he faked. I´m glad that i´m off and still healthy. I have an idea because of my experience with him, but it´s a little bit disgusting to tell. I´ve read about it in Keene´s book. Just use your imagination...

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:03 pm

dont-like-frauds wrote:
Neilos wrote:Still doesn't explain my experiences of sitting with Kai which I believe was genuine. I saw web like ectoplasm, a pulsing putty like substance, the ecto hand that waved plus a approx 4' tower that grew from the floor which was observed in red light. The Halloween cobwebs theory cannot account for what I experienced. I was stood behind the mediums wife's chair and was about 6' away from the cabinet with quite a unique perspective as I could observe the phenomena from the side rather than front.

It´s a trap to believe sth. could be genuine, because one can´t explain the trick. But i can understand you. Many people are in the same situation and unfortunatly only a few have left this trap behind them. It blocks emotionally not to know, how it works. One doesn´t want to do sth. wrong to someone. Knowing and using this, Mügge additionally i.e. presents his many supportes on his blog to make one believe he´s genuine. So many people can´t be wrong...And at a certain point this all becomes a fast- selling item.
You get closer to the truth, when you consider the fact, that the trance is faked. In Michael Nahm´s report and on my blog http://last-exit-felixcircle.blogspot.de/ you can see, that at least one part of the performance is faked. The pictures are very clear. This makes it very, very reasonable, that the rest of the cabinetshow is faked, too. Including the allegedly ectoplasm. Both „appeared“ in the same performance. Mixed mediumship? One time he „produces real ectoplasm“ and sometimes he only uses spiderweb? Why? Hello? What would „normal“ people say, if you tell them this story? What does common sense say?
If the admin allows and you want, i can post you the 11 paged bibliography of Lamar Keene´s „psychic mafia“. I´m just finished reading this book. All about fake and how to do. I´m sure you´ll find sth. which explains the trickery to you, too, if this is so important. It looks like that this all is an century old fake business, which Mügge just reanimated quite well. He had time enough in his workless past to study this all. I don´t have the time to do this and actually i´m not interested anymore to know in details how he faked. I´m glad that i´m off and still healthy. I have an idea because of my experience with him, but it´s a little bit disgusting to tell. I´ve read about it in Keene´s book. Just use your imagination...

Please consider, that i´m only talking about the "phenomena level". If you or others would know things from the "personal level", i was getting aware in the end, you were angry to waste your time in investigating.
I´m curious, if one day some of his old friends will recognize him and talk publicly about what he is doing this time. Just read some (old) comments at youtube below his videos of "Babylon TV". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4bAOwzsgUM Listen to his voice and read the comments about it!

by mac Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:59 pm

mac wrote:
Neilos wrote:Still doesn't explain my experiences of sitting with Kai which I believe was genuine. I saw web like ectoplasm, a pulsing putty like substance, the ecto hand that waved plus a approx 4' tower that grew from the floor which was observed in red light. The Halloween cobwebs theory cannot account for what I experienced. I was stood behind the mediums wife's chair and was about 6' away from the cabinet with quite a unique perspective as I could observe the phenomena from the side rather than front.

Perhaps it truly is the so-called mixed mediumship situation that applies to KM?

Sometimes he produces genuine phenomena but at others he appears to give a different performance, one in which props are used. A horses-for-courses approach....

Alternatively he might be an out-and-out faker.... Razz

by Neilos Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:14 pm

Good point IDLF's but without an alternative solution I am literally left in the dark as to how this could have done by trickery. I have sat with Kai twice as l have previously said and both séances were different. To have used trickery as per your view the medium would have to hidden a telescopic rod, swallowed 4 different types of material that could move independently and appear to grow and obviously regurgitate the different materials at will. Then swallow or hide the different materials on his person in a matter of minutes. In the second séance I was fortunate enough to have spirit lights pass through my body and I don't think the D-lite thingy can do that?

by dont-like-frauds Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:53 pm

Neilos wrote:Good point IDLF's but without an alternative solution I am literally left in the dark as to how this could have done by trickery. I have sat with Kai twice as l have previously said and both séances were different. To have used trickery as per your view the medium would have to hidden a telescopic rod, swallowed 4 different types of material that could move independently and appear to grow and obviously regurgitate the different materials at will. Then swallow or hide the different materials on his person in a matter of minutes. In the second séance I was fortunate enough to have spirit lights pass through my body and I don't think the D-lite thingy can do that?

Bad news. You´ll have to live with this "not knowing how it works". I don´t know, when Mügge started to investigate how to cheat. He´s years in advance. That is, what he profits from - beside other things. You want to have this "knowledge" here and now? I can´t tell you how to cheat, Mügge won´t tell you. You´ve sat twice with him, me three years. So what do you expect? If you want to know how he cheats, start to read "psychic mafia" and maybe you start to get an idea, how it works. Buy some books from the bibliography of Keene and then maybe start to join a magician circle etc etc. Work with logic riddles to train your brain. Sometimes you just have to think around the corner. Do you know the story of the man who used to walk everyday with an umbrella, even when there was no rain at all? He needed the umbrella to operate the elevator, because he was so small and lived in the upper floor, can´t reach the buttom....Got the idea of what i mean? And then maybe one day you will know, how it works. But for what? Please don´t get me wrong, but the question we have to ask ourselves is, how much input does our Ego need to accept, that we have been cheated? Sometetimes we just have to let things go and find back to normal life....

by Mic Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:58 pm

"In the second séance I was fortunate enough to have spirit lights pass through my body and I don't think the D-lite thingy can do that?"

Hi,
wow, that sounds amazing. I'd be very grateful if you could describe this process in more detail. Eg, which colour and size did these lights have, where did they enter and leave your body, how long did they stay inside, and how did it feel when they entered, moved inside, and left your body? Thanks!

by Neilos Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:09 pm

They were white orb like lights that appeared in blackout conditions whilst in a public séance. The lights were moving around quite quickly towards my torso area and just carried on rIght through. No sensation as such but could see them entering and exiting my body following their own rythmn.

by Neilos Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:17 pm

Thanks for your reply IDLF's but my question is out of curiosity rather than any burning desire. I am saddened by the D-lite video but don't believe that it is all trickery. No tricks of the ego but looking at the phenomenon in a logical way. I followed Keene link you posted and the trumpet demo does not compare to what I experienced in anyway. I have seen similar with other public mediums but not the ones with Kai. As you have said you know Kai very well so it seems logical to ask you for your perspective.

by Mic Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:35 pm

"They were white orb like lights that appeared in blackout conditions whilst in a public séance. The lights were moving around quite quickly towards my torso area and just carried on rIght through. No sensation as such but could see them entering and exiting my body following their own rythmn."

Thanks, that's cool Neilos....I have one last question: Was it one light that flew around, or were there multiple lights moving around at the same time?

by Sponsored content