Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:45 pm

Ever the problem Bravo Eleanor Mildred Sidgwick was almost a one woman SPR wrecking ball who was such a total sceptic she drove many mediums away and caused some Spiritualists to leave the newly formed Society of Psychical Research. The William Eglington issue was very pivotal to the change in perceptions. Of course Eglington is a complex person. Marc Demarest has been researching his history in detail with Lis also fact finding. Marc will be summarising the story on his Chasing Emma blog.

I do recommend subscribing to the blog Marc is a tireless researcher who obtains some of the most extraordinary material http://ehbritten.blogspot.com.au/
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:48 pm

Of course some mediums still worked closely with the SPR hence William James One White Crow Leonora Piper.
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by bravo321uk on Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:04 pm

thankyou for the blog link, I have been reading for the last hour or so,, I think it may be a long night Smile

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:14 pm

Good Luck Bravo, have fun he has so much material on there and makes it freely available in download format whenever he can find it. There seem to be days where there are 5 researchers tracking material, I am following one line of enquiry which helps fill in background on a medium of interest which Lis and Marc are also tracking. He has a miraculous ability to find material. In addition along with John Pat Deveney and some others they are digitising all the old Spiritualist Papers they can find and making them freely available.

I tried to persuade the National Library of Australia to tell me how much a copy film of the full run of Australia's own Harbinger of Light (from the 1860's to 1950's) would cost to send to them. Sadly they are determined to do it themselves when funds are available. They have promised to let me know when they may start.

Harbinger is very important both for Australian History but it also frequently re printed significant articles from other magazines which are very hard to find.
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by MU!! on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:28 am

bravo321uk wrote:There is plenty to investigate, But it does depend on the attitude of the investigator I suppose. I think in the past investigators were more willing to investigate with, rather than against.. Often it is said that the attitude of Mediums has changed which stops investigation, but I also think the attitude of the investigators has changed too.. Which stops the mediums coming forward.

Chicken and egg, eh?

What present day physical mediums are there that are worthy of being investigated for survival evidence? That is what this thread is about, Michael Roll, his search and all for a full form materialization medium alike Rita Goold. I have a list of 50 I am culling through so you could save MU!! a lot of time.


Last edited by MU!! on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:21 am

I think Michael Roll has had some ideas but has hit many problems. He certainly approached both David Thompson and Colin Fry with both refusing.

You have two issues Mu!! There is no physical medium, known publically, producing genuine walking talking full form materialisations that have been subjected to anything like enough scientific investigation to verify the claims.

Then there are no mediums who will place themselves into the type of scientific research that would be required. The techniques we have now can be non invasive ( pressure plates under carpet to pick up movements, thermography, heart or tracker monitors to indicate the mediums position or physical condition etc etc). The old mediums, who were tested would have welcomed what we could now offer for their comfort.

Now we have some mediums who claim they are capable of what you would like to see but none of those who would allow themselves to be subject to anything other than the Zammit style of empirical research. Additionally all public, earning, mediums currently demonstrating insist on knowing the names, addresse and type of ID they will present to verify them before being allowed to get into a seance

We may have some people in private groups but there is a good reason they choose to work in this way.

I fear that you are on a wild goose chase to try and find Michael Rolls new Rita Goold. However, you just dismissed the recording of Rita's control the key to her mediumship, so maybe Michaels Rita was not the great full form medium . Indeed did Michael see the forms in the light and what sťance controls were in place. I understand other researchers were fairly dismissive of her work, Michael was her champion.

I am unsure that Spirit is yet ready to produce full form in the light with full scientific verification. What are the world wide ramifications, in the current state of mankind's civilisation, if everyone has to face the fact of the continued existence of the individual Spirit. I very much doubt it will bring peace or stop terrorism. Indeed some Governments may use the fact that you do not die to be more warlike.

Is the conclusive proof which people are looking for still too dangerous for mankind to handle. Does humanity really want to face this truth.. Can you just imagine how the major religions would fit this into their theology.

Oh well enough philosophising. Unless someone out their really knows a physical medium who can and does do full materialisations that do not require people to have a level of belief I do not know how long you may wait MU.
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:10 pm

I will say that Michael Roll seems passionate about his research. There is almost a desperation about it, the desperation of one who believes he see clearly the truth but is frustrated that others do not or ignore it. I quite like his non-religious approach.

If survival were proven to be true, especially with no religious element to it, I can see that it might also result in an increase in the suicide rate. When folks are at that point,they can see no way out. To be told that actually you can't die and that, as it would appear, in the long term suicide is survivable might be a dangerous precedent. Humans seem to have a great capacity sometimes for not worrying too much about the consequences of our decisions.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by bravo321uk on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:23 pm

To be honest Obi, I have had those exact thoughts,, We all know that sometimes people are very quick to give away responsibility for their actions. so in turn could lead in the persons mind to an easy out... also those in severe grief could well be more tempted. I used to think in my mind that I wanted survival to be excepted by mainstream, But now im not so sure, as human beings we have a knack of ripping things apart,,, and maybe this is something were never meant to rip apart, Maybe the spirit world has done the exact right thing... keeping just enough wonder involved.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by LeroyC on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:54 pm

Hi all, and all the best for the festive season to everyone!

This is a most interesting post, as it gets to the centre of what is going wrong with modern Spiritualism..LACK OF EVIDENCE!!!. I doubt if Michael Roll will get his wish. The 'bunch' of physical mediums ??? we have today are predominantly getting 'phenomena'? but littel else..Where is the evidence.

In part I put this down to lack of development, and a hell bent urge to go public and tell everyone they are a 'physical mediums' long before they should be doing. There again perhaps money has something to do with it.

As for Michaels experiences I have talked with him at length about his experiences with Rita Goold and him meeting his deceased (materialised) father. I also spent many hours with Allan Crossley who praised Ritas mediumship and explained how he had multiple communications with his deceased (materialised) wife.

I was lucky enough to know Ritas Circle leader very well and he again praised her mediumship. I have never sat with the lady, but one medium whom I admire greatly and have a good deal of respect for sat in the circle and came away with doubts!!..

I doubt today even if we could film full form materialisation in light and re-unite loved oned in the seance room and then film it would do much good. Our critics will always say film can be manipulated, and of course it can.

What keeps me going ARE the anecdotal accounts from the likes of Michael and Allan. I have no reason to doubt their word, or imply that they were deluded. We have just too many accounts of such experinces in our history to ever really doubt that they happened; despite what arguments the skeptics would like to put forward.

LeroyC

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:15 pm

Interesting comment LeRoy. For the record - I am not suggesting Michael Roll is deluded.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by MU!! on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:29 pm

Jim, not much of what you posted can I find fault or error. I am aware that I may be in pursuit of that which does not exist and that which if it does, may well be best left alone...for my personal best health. Embarassed

But this is what I have done for most of my adult life, adventures into states of realities and there is a driving force that feels irresistible underpinning this one. Better to have tried in vain then not ventured at all, I hope.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by MU!! on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:38 pm

obiwan wrote:I will say that Michael Roll seems passionate about his research. There is almost a desperation about it, the desperation of one who believes he see clearly the truth but is frustrated that others do not or ignore it. I quite like his non-religious approach.

If survival were proven to be true, especially with no religious element to it, I can see that it might also result in an increase in the suicide rate. When folks are at that point,they can see no way out. To be told that actually you can't die and that, as it would appear, in the long term suicide is survivable might be a dangerous precedent. Humans seem to have a great capacity sometimes for not worrying too much about the consequences of our decisions.
Obi, I agree and this is Michael's curse as well as his sustainability. His emotion clouds his better judgment assuming he has a better, logical and more businesslike capability. I don't believe he does.

As far as suicide, yes, that may well be the case but along with revelation always comes the dark side. The best we can hope for is an offset for it is clear that suicide is a massive FAIL, you are going to have to experience what a full, uninterrupted natural life brings. Suicide solves nothing and delays spiritual progress.

Perhaps the net effect is that more would learn this than there would be an acceleration of suicide rates.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:17 pm

[quote="MU!!"]
obiwan wrote:

As far as suicide, yes, that may well be the case but along with revelation always comes the dark side. The best we can hope for is an offset for it is clear that suicide is a massive FAIL, you are going to have to experience what a full, uninterrupted natural life brings. Suicide solves nothing and delays spiritual progress.

Perhaps the net effect is that more would learn this than there would be an acceleration of suicide rates.

Hi MU!!

Agreed. Every discovery ever made has its positive and negative applications. The more we know, the more informed decisions we can make. Whether we want to or not is a personal matter perhaps. Very Happy

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:19 pm

I agree with Leroy this has become a very interesting post with some excellent points.

Like Leroy, if it was not what I have read which is trustworthy, experienced myself with good mediums (or seen good mediums give exact messages to people that they could not know in advance), talked through with people with knowledge and integrity or experienced through mu own mediumship I may be struggling more than I do. In the detailed research which I do in combination of others all to often I find some of the major figured of the 19th and early 20th Century do not stand up as you assemble all the material which people find.

Luckily some still do or appear to.

Obi I am more worried about terrorism, albeit knowing you will continue life and could meet your victims is much less attractive than the special heaven they are promised. In time humanity could be ready for the news, indeed maybe it would shake some of the people so much in itself it would drive change.

For now its enough for me that we try to ensure those seeking contact with loved ones can get it with decent evidence. There will always be a big group who gather round for phenomenal excitement and fortune telling. I worry less about that because there is a massive oversupply of people who will give them that but an undersupply of mediums devoted purely to proof of survival.
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by LeroyC on Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:12 pm

Hi all,

Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought Michael deluded. I do not, but he has an up hill battle I am afraid. It is interesting to hear of 'admins' research on some of the earlier 'greats' who turn out not standing up to more detailed scrutiny.

This is a big problem as we only have the history to go on. The work of the Bangs is a classic example of this, so I am on the fence with that one.
What we also have to look at is the motivation and viewpoints of the sitters and their biases, which we all have. That featured a great deal in the Marjory mediumship of course.

What is most convincing to me are multiple eye witness reports of the phenomena, and where fraud is all but impossible.

Interestingly I have a few recordings of the Rita Goold sittings in which Allan Crossley sat, and he clearly tells how he sat and talked with Helen Duncan about events that they both new about years before.

The little boy that materialised was Russel Vernon Byrne, and in fact Maurice Grosse sat in the circle from the SPR. One of his comments was after the circle was "I cannot understand where that little boy came from!!"

LeroyC

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:03 pm

Hi LeRoy I don't think you suggested Michael Roll was deluded, I thought perhaps you had the impression I had suggested it lol.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:30 pm

Thanks once again Leroy, especially about Rita, I have been a bit, as you put it so aptly, on the fence over her work.

As committed Spiritualists Lis and I look upon the detailed research with some foreboding because of the entrenched opinions on some of the people involved. Interestingly some of the people themselves gave up claims of Spirit Influence for the description wonder shows but despite that and numerous exposures the movements records still show them as mediums.

It is interesting what can be found when a group of serious researchers, spread over the UK, USA and Australia work together.

On my part, of the early mediums (up to say 1935), I talk about DD Home, partly because he agreed with the idea that much he could do had nothing to do with Spirit, Leonora Piper, Gladys Osborne Leonard, Etta Wriedt (in whose direct voice sťances she would also join in the dialogue), Estelle Roberts and Eileen Garrett. Clearly there are others but these have left traces that are well worth dealing with.

I have steered clear of dark sťances and materialisation because of the weight of fraudulent exposure, even in some tested mediums. Its a very long list Herne, Hill, Husk, Cook, Showers, the Holmes', etc etc Some could be observer issues others were clearly fairly blatant. In the end it does not matter because if you use them a sceptic can just shoot you down. Its the same problem with the dark sťances today devotees will attack doubters willingly but they are giving no evidence. Their existence exposes Spiritualism to criticism once again, standards of mental mediumship have deteriorated and we can do without Caylor or Akesohn type exposures to make the picture look worse.

You are right that almost all of those claiming to be physical mediums. who perform publically for reasonably high charges, should still be developing privately not demonstrating.

Jim
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by MU!! on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:39 am

LeroyC wrote:Hi all,

Interestingly I have a few recordings of the Rita Goold sittings in which Allan Crossley sat, and he clearly tells how he sat and talked with Helen Duncan about events that they both new about years before.
Are these the video/audios of Crossley talking about Goold or her actual seance recordings? If the latter, can you uplaod provide a link?

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by MU!! on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:47 am

Admin wrote:...that almost all of those claiming to be physical mediums. who perform publically for reasonably high charges, should still be developing privately not demonstrating.

Jim
They are going to have to pay their bills somehow so I have no problem with PMs charging the tote. There is also no reason they can't privatley develop and publicly demonstrate but the Caylors of the PM world don't appear to be concerned with developing anything more than an elaborate, phenoma-centered circus act.

MOF, the combination of bringing PM to the modern non-(s)(S)piritualist is a superb cause and to have a PM develop his/her talents, showing the scaling of their development at appropariate times publically, would be the best of all worlds, imho.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:55 am

Showing the world in a dark sťance is almost impossible MU. To much trust is required and what are we asking them to develop telekinetic phenomena with trumpets flying and tables jumping or proof of survival.

It is the key question to ask, I know they have to pay their bills but many of the best in the past did this by working their sťances were free. Have a good read of Listen My Son the only published record of the brilliant medium Hunter Selkirk (until we can get some of the 1920/1930 Spiritualist papers digitised).

I agree though they can charge all they like and there are very many people who will pay to go along. I just think they should be the finished article before they charge. Yes it would be interesting to see the development of a medium in conjunction with a research team.

However, spotting those with the genuine potential for physical mediumship is not the easiest job to do.
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by MU!! on Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Admin wrote:Showing the world in a dark sťance is almost impossible MU. To much trust is required and what are we asking them to develop telekinetic phenomena with trumpets flying and tables jumping or proof of survival.
Preaching to the choir, Jim.

It is the key question to ask, I know they have to pay their bills but many of the best in the past did this by working their sťances were free. Have a good read of Listen My Son the only published record of the brilliant medium Hunter Selkirk (until we can get some of the 1920/1930 Spiritualist papers digitised).
Thanks but because free as the choice of the past doesn't invalidate their perfectly acceptable choice to charge now and in the future. That or they receive, as did many of the so-called "free" PMs, stipends, gifts, charity and other means on sustenance.

The concept of charging or not charging is a non-starter for MU!! I could care less, I want to see what survival evidences they produce. Which is why I have little interest - at present - in the Warren Caylors and David Thompsons of the PM world.

I agree though they can charge all they like and there are very many people who will pay to go along. I just think they should be the finished article before they charge. Yes it would be interesting to see the development of a medium in conjunction with a research team.
It would. I can't find one.

Yet. Smile

However, spotting those with the genuine potential for physical mediumship is not the easiest job to do.

It's also not only about the PM, it's about their circle, the harmony among members, the long-lastingness of their commitment, and a host of other items that are as important, if not more so, than the PM him/herself.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by obiwan on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:10 am

MU!! wrote:
It's also not only about the PM, it's about their circle, the harmony among members, the long-lastingness of their commitment, and a host of other items that are as important, if not more so, than the PM him/herself.

Interesting comment. I was recently re-reading Neville Randall's book "Life After Death" on the Woods/Greene recordings of Leslie Flint; apparently one purported communicator mentioned that they were only able to obtain consistently good results because of the continuity and the harmony of the small circle. This person also apparently commented on the fact that new sitters or one-offs were sometimes disappointed that the results were not as good as the recordings and attributed this to the constitution of the circle, clearly in this case the medium was the constant in the equation.

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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by Admin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:18 am

Its interesting that the causes behind this are so similar to the answers now on the Just Sharing thread in General Chat about energy and its impact.
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Re: Beyond Spiritualism. www.cfpf.org/

Post by hiorta on Fri Jan 04, 2013 12:39 pm

I would doubt whether the 'cannot die' knowledge would encourage suicide, but in any case, a practical understanding of basic survival would be a formidable barrier to all but those determined to seek oblivion, as they might understand it.

I have met quite a few who, for unselfish reasons, felt that they 'could not go on without --', or wanted to join -- who had died.

Virtually the same reasoning was helpful to those who felt that they had fouled up their lives, perhaps seriously spoiling the lives of others along the way. These folk just wanted to be free of the consequences of their choices.

I remember a lady who was so longer-term deeply distraught when her mother died, that she only wished to 'be with her'. Very gently we discussed her great sense of loss and slowly thoughts came.
The lady's religious belief held that, if mother had complied with that belief's conditions, she would survive in some vague and woolly shapeless afterlife.

It took a very long time to even get past the grief, but eventually we were able to discuss the situation. As Mother had led a good religious life and had a natural passing, her own suicide must then automatically prevent her from 'being together.' By doing as she considered , this would create a natural, insurmountable barrier and most likely leave her beyond earthly help and also separated from Mother.
In this instance it had the desired effect.

The other category was tackled in much the same way.
Their life choices had brought the opposite of what they desired from Life, so perhaps their reasoning was maybe a little flawed?

Suicide would not mean the end of them as they imagined, all it would accomplish was to remove them from the physical world, which was where their only chance of finding some peace lay - by addressing the cause of their desperate unhappiness. If they considered that their life was now horrendous, little did they realise what it will soon be like. And, be stuck with it for what could seem for ever, but now without the means of 'sorting' things.

With a reasonable everyday explanation, suicide would be seen to be not the solution.

Yet, it is and has been claimed that 'Spiritualism is dangerous' - the dangers always unspecified and deliberately left vague.
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Post by MU!! on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:06 am

Nice post, hiorta. What would you expect would be the life review observation for someone who assisted in a suicide with a terminally ill spouse who was in absolute agony and requested relief and the solace of the afterlife?

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