Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:06 pm

Well if he didn't then someone would have had to invent him. St Paul possibly.
I reckon the evidence that Jesus did exist outweighs any idea that he didn't. That said the PR is dodgy. Sort of second and third hand reports of a medium and healer going about his everyday job that you'd still get today from non mediums with their own agendas and writing years after events .
Bit like comments on Leslie Flint on here. Georg z was there. I wasn't but we both write about him. George must be the more factually accurate albeit his version is still subjective as he was the subject for the impressions received at the time; but those who favour my approach to the physical may prefer to read one version as opposed to the 'gospel according to St. George'. Writers have the right to write as they see fit and all readers will either be led or ,preferably; make up their own minds. Either way all stories, eventually; are re-written and re-read preferentially.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by hiorta on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:18 pm

There is no credible evidence supporting the existence of a biblical 'Jesus'.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:37 pm

In real life narrative tradition trumps empirical evidence every time.
Examples of that 'evidence' are all around us h. They are called church buildings and some of those even say Christian Spiritualist above the door.
The rest is a circular argument and gets no one anywhere beyond preaching to the pro or anti 'converted'.
OK there is no evidence in the form of original attestable data in any tangible media that Jesus existed. FACT.
OK since the first century right up to now groups have existed basing their life narratives around the existence and work of Jesus. FACT
My narrative.
Jesus existed and was perhaps the greatest living medium and healer in occidental history.
Prove me wrong if you may, the arguments either of us draw on to defend or refute are narrative and without empirical substance. Yours because as there are no media extant to indicate his existence then the opposite is equally true.
Mine because it is a purely subjective faith narrative.
Apples and bananas my Caledonian chum.
No point in comparing them.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:56 pm

Unless of course we consider Pascal' wager.
We are agreed that both our positions lack tangible proof.However if the belied position is wrong then nothing has been lost.
The same applies to the unbelief position. Nothing the so nothing to ose.
If however the belief posiition is correct then its benefits are pure gain for the believer.
Both Pascal and Classical Game Theory agree that the belief position only 'winner'.

Of course all that is just another set of narrative yarns by Game Theorists and Pascal to affirm their positions and keep the darkness at bay.
Humans do that sort of thing all the time.
Mediums, albeit dimly; tend to know why humans do so.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Left Behind on Sat Apr 21, 2012 4:28 pm

hiorta wrote:There is no credible evidence supporting the existence of a biblical 'Jesus'.

A lot of people just decided to get together and devote their lives to promulgating a concocted story that the guy existed.

They didn't have the internet or TV sports to amuse them, you see: so just for kicks, they decided to go out and spread this myth. And getting killed in the process while leading a life of hardship and being persecuted. . . well, it just added zest to it all. Rolling Eyes

Jim

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:02 pm

Yep. Those martyrs too. What a bunch of whacky funsters!
The lengths some folk will go to [even 16th century New England in leaky boats for one crazy bunch] for what everyone clever really knows isn't real.
;-)
The entire NT can be read as a mediums and healers manual.
Top medium yer Jesus. All respect.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:13 pm

Just as an aside h.
Your message footer reads
'all things work wisely and well'
Just a guess here based on that motto.
You've never worked in the English education system.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by hiorta on Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:11 pm

A gifted woman, Hypathia, born in Alexandria in AD 370 was an extremely able and unusual woman – mathematician, astronomer, physicist and head of the neo-platonic School of Philosophy – at a time when women were regarded as mere possessions.

At about the same time the emerging ‘christian’ church was destroying anything and everything perceived as threatening to their attempts at establishing their contrived dogma, regarded such learning, as was manifest in Hypathia, as ‘pagan’. (‘Pagan’ was similar to ‘peasant’ – a country dweller - usually immersed in agriculture, therefore ignorant/ untutored) ( Hypathia, Socrates, Aristotal, Plato, et al are classified by the Church as ’unenlightened’). Eratosthenes, who demonstrated the Earth as being round, some 1500 years before Renaissance Science and Pythagoras are ‘unenlightened’ according to the early Church. This emerging organisation first destroyed the great Libraries of Alexandria before setting out to impose their claimed 'god-given' truth upon local humanity. An example of the home-made religion was the persecution of Copernicus who calculated that the sun did not travel around the Earth every day.

The then Archbishop of Alexandria, Cyril, feared the lady, as she was a symbol of learning and intellect. A mob of Cyril’s parishioners ambushed her in AD 415, stripped her, viciously flayed her flesh from her bones then burnt the remains. Cyril was elevated to ‘Sainthood’.
The Gospels give no account of the life of the alleged Jesus, who became a Divine by the decisions of Nicaea in AD 325.

Contemporary historian, Philo – born 30 BC, died AD 54 – was particularly interested in Jewish affairs yet makes no mention of a Jesus, or his followers.
It is reasonable to suppose that a local ‘miracle-worker’ who healed the blind, the sick and the deaf, upsetting Jew and Roman in doing so, would attract the attention of such a historian.
Someone who raised the dead and had them then walking around town, simply must have been noticed.

Christian folklore fits very neatly over the much earlier Egyptian religion with Isis, Horus and Sep. Indeed the very initials 'IHS' that are said to be some sort of signature of a Christ and are associated with Jesus/ come Christ, are exactly that – Isis, Horus, Sep,
Christianity (more aptly Paulianity) went on the rampage murdering, destroying, burning, torturing any and all folk and ideas they considered a threat. How many innocent plague marked, birth deformed innocents were publicly scourged, dismembered while alive, then burnt, all to preserve the Christian lie?
The perpetrators were the only Law & Order, self appointed of course.

Christianity has been constantly requested to produce evidence of their ‘God’ for the last 1500 years. The reply has been total silence, although one Pope, Leo X did let the ecclesiastical cat out of the bag when he admitted: ‘It has served us well, this Christ myth’.

Spiritualism was founded upon established and emerging Truth, let’s keep it that way.
There will be constant attempts at adulteration, indeed the SNU seem to be too keen to hurry change along. It wouldn’t take much of a swing to either criminalise Mediumship and/ or dilute it to farcical proportions, a side branch of showbiz.



Last edited by hiorta on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:03 pm

Well each to their own h.
Nothing springs fully formed from the void.
Spiritualism is a broad 'church' encompassing secularists alongside Christian traditions. Birds of a feather flock together so there's a Spiritualist church, association or centre to suit all tastes plus accomodate seekers.
We serve no purpose maintaining that there is only one path. There isn't. There are many paths and as long as Spirit is in them they all heading in the same direction.
Never trust a man [it's usually a man] who tries to tell you that there is only one true and approved way to look at things.
He only has the one eye, and that has a nasty squint.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by skfarblum on Sun Apr 22, 2012 3:07 pm

Dear Hiorta,
I have just finished reading the book
Jesus 888 by Geoff Roberts.
His book confirms all that you wrote.
You may enjoy reading it.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Left Behind on Sun Apr 22, 2012 4:26 pm

I'm curious as to what "evidence" you'd be wiling to consider, Hiorta.

You try to bolster your argument with a diatribe against the Christian church and the things it did centuries after Jesus' death. So what does this have to do with whether Jesus existed? Muslim fanatics bombed the World Trade Center in 2001. Does this mean that Mohammed never existed?

I have to admit that I never read the accounts of Philo Judaeus of Alexandria. However, I recall being told in religion class that Jesus WAS mentioned therein.

Now, as far as the Gospels allegedly containing no account of Jesus' life: I HAVE read those, and if you did, you must have speed-read through them very quickly, because you missed a lot: parts whether the Gospel writers talk about Jesus being born: his family having to fell with him to Egypt to avoid Roman genocide when he was a boy: being presented at the Temple as a baby: preaching to the elders in the Temple as a boy: being a one-man wrecking crew and chasing the money-changers out of the Temple as a man: performing miracles, raising the dead, healing the sick, being tried, executed, raising himself from the dead. . .

What evidence might satisfy you that he existed? A Facebook account? A driver's license issued by the Judaean Bureau of Motor Vehicles? A photograph of him and his buddies, inscribed on the back, "Me, Jeese, and Jimmie at Sea of Gal., June, 31"?

Speaking of Mohammed: what evidence is there that HE existed? Or Gautama the Buddha?

Do you know that there are Chinese records dating from the time when Marco Polo claims to have been an administrator there under Kublai Khan, that fail to mention him and his family? Should we assume from this that he concocted the whole story of his days in China?

Jim

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:59 pm

You'll not convince him JIm. Secularists are the Spiritualist version of the Taliban.
Please Spirit that we should all have such faith!,
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Admin on Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:03 am

Hiorta missed one thing out the same Romans who established the church cunningly decided to use the favourite festive day of another God Mithra as Christmas day. Mithra's symbol the lamb now the lamb of God Jesus. They used the dates of all the major pagan festivals to help the assimilation of the Empire into its new official Religion. Indeed we must remember this is when the concepts of the Trinity appeared not in Jesus's time or teachings.

What we must be aware of Jesus or no Jesus the Bible is not an accurate record of true history. The Coptic Church histories come much closer to reality, where they survivd without Catholic influence. We also forget that the Roman Empire split in to and the official Pope moved to what is now Constantnople for safety. Sadly that was destroyed by the actions of the jealous Venetians. We do know, from the discoveries of the various books that form the Gnostic Gospels that ther could well be a valid alternative story and other documents may turn up although they are more likely destroyed now.

Hey ho it helps to remember history and the events that changed stories and records. I understand even the Torah was rewritten to reflect the victory of one Jewish tribe over another. There are also suggestions that during their two term in exile, firstly in Persia and then Eygpt sections may have been rewritten. It is often forgotten that the Semitic races were once, around 2,000-3,000 BC dominant in the region

As to Mohammed the blessed Prophet I believe, as a more recent figure there is a historical record but then like Jesus he never claimed to be the Son of God. I would guess he would never have expected the multiplicity of uses of his words or the way they have been used.

Theologians have taken the Bible so far away from the simple commandements that Jesus proclaimed the Religions (I mean multiple because of all the sects and interpretations) teach little that is truly important, indeed the frequent mis use of his words of love have caused great harm. I am sure Jesus although a Jew, living his life in terms of the Torah, would have loved to reject the 10 Commandments, which are all to often at odds with his teachings, but even a rebel has to tread softly that would have seen him executed much earlier.

it would be good to see the whole matter dealt with on a basis of pure historical fact but sadly that will be impossible with Religion so closely intertwined.

Jim
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by hiorta on Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:01 am

Indeed, Jim. I was intending to suggest that a section for recovering Christians might be added to the site?
My post of brief comments somehow became a 'diatribe' so I've no more to add to this topic, apart from care being needed when accepting Principles/ Commandments as somehow 'sacred'. They are not. Knowledge is endless.
Spiritualist Principles (SNU style) served the people of that day and make a good starting point for study.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by zerdini on Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:42 pm

Bit like comments on Leslie Flint on here. Georg z was there. I wasn't but we both write about him. George must be the more factually accurate albeit his version is still subjective as he was the subject for the impressions received at the time; but those who favour my approach to the physical may prefer to read one version as opposed to the 'gospel according to St. George'. Writers have the right to write as they see fit and all readers will either be led or ,preferably; make up their own minds. Either way all stories, eventually; are re-written and re-read preferentially.

May I point out that my version is objective and factually accurate as I was there and you weren't.

It wasn't subjective as I was not the subject for impressions received at the time. I tape-recorded everything including a conversation with my grandfather which lasted 40 minutes.

Certainly you have the right to write whatever you wish but it will never make it true because it is not based on personal experience.



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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:09 pm

Subject of and to the impressions received George.
That you were, as the recordings attest.
All else is reportage.
No one can know what transpires to the north of any single individual's neck.
Very Happy
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Quiet on Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:19 pm

I've not had effective internet connections for a few days so have not been able to participate actively though I've been able to read a little on my iPhone.

Fascinating discussion, this.

Although brought up Catholic I never connected with the Christ story in a deep sense. After I'd left the Church I came to believe that Christ was a member of the Essenes, a healing sect in Palestine. Don't remember how I came to believe this.

In later life two books had significant influence on me - 'The Gospel according to Jesus' by Stephen Mitchell and 'Esoteric Christianity' by Annie Besant. (Left Behind Jim - you might like to look at these one day, especially the Annie Besant book in which she suggests that Christ was simply a great Teacher for the West). Buddha and Mohammed were teachers for other sections of humanity in history and across cultures.

Christ's teachings about how we should live are quite beautiful and in some ways consistent with the teachings of spirit communicators like Silver Birch.

Christianity as a Church very quickly became a political institution promulgating the interests of various versions of patriarchy in my opinion and I think history can verify this.

And today when we see the Catholic Church criticising and seeking to control American nuns there is even more evidence of this Smile. I had to smile when this story appeared in the news yesterday. Same old, same old.

Jim (LH), I am not 'Christian' in the sense that I believe the current Catholic version of Christ's life and purpose but it doesn't really matter in my opinion. The Christian churches have a lot of dogma and values that have little to do with much that Christ is reported to have said. But there are strains of goodness in some aspects of the Church and much goodness in many of its members. I call this the 'spiritual church' as opposed to the political church. The Popes et al throughout history belong in the latter.

I do believe in the life of the spirit and that the most important things are love, community and service. Humanity is so diverse, it doesn't really matter how we understand those things as long as we reach for them, live them.

People become dogmatic and opinionated so quickly. In groups that can be amusing AND disastrous. Many people base their opinions on the most fragile evidence. Often there is no evidence at all for many strongly held beliefs and, unfortunately, these are frequently manifested in daily political and community life Smile.

We are seeing this in Australian politics at the moment. We see it in the Catholic and other Christian Churches throughout history. We see it in spiritualist communities too.

Each of us has to find our own path and if we're lucky we might find a few people to walk with along the way.

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Quiet on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:07 am

I think I may have killed this thread Smile. Sorry all.

Spent a lot of time in my younger days reading various tomes on Church history. They assuaged my anger and disappointment then but achieved little else except to perhaps open the door to other things. Fortunately I encountered some of the good people - like Francis of Assisi, John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila and so on to help me understand later

The doubts about the existence of Christ are not new but I don't think they matter all that much.

Some of you guys are so serious about everything and at times awfully rude to each other. Peace on Earth? Forget it Sad

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:18 am

Some of you guys are so serious about everything and at times awfully rude to each other. Peace on Earth? Forget it .
Quiet

It's a 'man' thing Q.
I have no idea why we do it, we just do.
Same thing happens in Spiritualist churches. Only 10% men attend. Ratio is about 9 ladies to every man often more. Yet 99% of the falling out is done between that 10% of men, always, everywhere.
Possibly genetic?
Or maybe we are just grumpy old men.
You seldom find the ladies indulging in such daft shenanikins.

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Quiet on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:44 am

Is it a man thing? I've wondered. Men think differently for sure.

I had to block my own brother on Facebook because of his innate arrogance and sometimes extremely patronising style. Yet I care about him. My solution was to leave Facebook Smile

Some fights are not worth it.

Perhaps men have more of an evolutionary desire to joust and it's just fun for them at times. Is that what you are saying?

Maybe all of us get a bit grumpy with age and the Internet doesn't give much for kindness.

I did find hiorta's bit about the history interesting however.


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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:32 am

Men are from Mars Women are from Venus.
Good book and I can't fault what he's saying.
From Amazon.co.uk
A classic and unique self-help book, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus tackles the perennial problems faced by couples everywhere. Gray tells an allegorical story of the Venusians and the Martians who move to Earth, having enjoyed wonderful and fulfilling relationships with one another for many years. However, as soon as they arrive on this planet, amnesia sets in! They can no longer remember that they are from different planets and all sorts of communication and emotional problems set in. Written in an unpretentious and jargon-free style, Gray's tactic of using "Venusian" and "Martian" to refer to the two genders (and he does comment that these roles are not necessarily based on sexual biology) avoids the dead-end path followed by so many people, of using sweeping statements such as: "men always..." or "women just don't understand...". Instead, he says: "Venusians are from a different planet, therefore..." or "Martians need...". This in itself is a worthwhile tactic, removing blame and shifting communication onto a new level where it is OK not to be on the same wavelength all the time and not to automatically understand all your partner's needs. His new naming strategy even manages to be amusing, in a way that many books in this area can fail to be, although the writing tends towards over-simplicity at times.
He discusses every aspect of relationships--but most importantly he does this in practical ways. For example, he lists common statements that people in relationships say to their partners, what is intended, what is actually heard. Gray goes on to suggest ways to say what you intended that are more appropriate for the Venusian or Martian audienc--he even compiles lists of translations of common male/female exchanges.

The tone of the book is always helpful, friendly and non-judgmental, kind and well-meaning, although the typical self-help strategy of repeating and summarising points results in the book seeming somewhat directionless. It is nevertheless an essential title for the bookshelf of every self-respecting self-help addict, and is a good place to start for the curious. It does also have some real gems of wisdom and new strategies. All in all, Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus is a star guide to understanding the constellations of coupledom. --Alison Jardine


Review
“Devoted readers praise Mr. Gray as the saviour of their marriages and his book as the brick that finally knocks some sense into their mates” Washington Times

“When I was 21 and freshly dumped by Harry, my first really grown-up boyfriend, where did I turn but John Gray’s Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus? It was reassuring to know the reason I’d been dumped wasn’t because I was rubbish in bed” New Woman

“Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Venus has shed light on countless relationship problems, offering an explanation for many social inequalities…a hot topic of debate in households and offices throughout the world” Eastern Daily Press

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:43 am

Bit off topic this but maybe not tol far off.
I had a man student teacher i/c a class of teenagers with ADHD (lively, challenging sorts; but good kids when you reach 'em).
He was sinking without trace bcause his male reaction to some of their perceived challenges was 'A'.
I found him another placement for a breather and put in a woman student teacher whose appoach was 'B'. These student teachers are all mature people, he is a Dad she is a Mum.
Result.
Marvellous.
She reacts to their challenges in quite a different and possibly more empathic way.
Women are just so much wiser than men to begin with (at least in teacher training).
So now we know that approach 'B' works best with this group (and all groups are different every year) then we'll cascade her approach 'B' as an exemplar of effective practice for all to learn from.
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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by Quiet on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:44 pm

I haven't read that book but do know a little about Myers Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) which is based on personality preferences.

It is quite a useful way of understanding how people think and express themselves very differently. It is loosely based on Jungian typology.

The MBTI framework can explain the Mars/Venus feelings Smile.

I would normally be more detached but I was tired. There have been a few skirmishes and I wondered what was behind them.

Thanks for taking the time, KK Smile

It is interesting that there are generally more female mediums than male. I wondered what that was about as well but that is another discussion, not belonging here.

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Re: Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Post by KatyKing on Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:50 pm

MB is useful but expensive. I use VAK [Visual Auditory Kinaesthetic] for physiological domains and Honey & Mumford for learning personalities 'psychological' domains. The KatyKing icon to the right is a H&M 'type' imaged. You could just as readily use astrological sign personality types as the results of any psychological domain personality test are defined by the questions asked and are therefore conditional. People change over time cos they can IF they want to.
Unlike any psychological instrument, VAK is replicably measureable.
If anyone wants a go PM your email and I'll send the questionnaire.
Spiritualist parallels would be
V Clairvoyant
A Clairaudient
K Clairsentient
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