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Spiritualism & Spiritism ~ A Contradiction?

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Post by eirefox Tue May 08, 2012 3:03 pm

I read the thread on Chico Xavier https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t1573-chico-xavier-the-movie?highlight=chico
If both Spiritualism and Spiritism come from the same roots, then why the differences?
From what I can tell, the major differences between the two are these:

1) Spiritism teaches reincarnation and pre-existence, and many Spiritualists reject reincarnation and pre-existence.
2) Spiritism is morally based on the teachings of Jesus, and many Spiritualists look at Jesus as a myth or as just another great teacher.
3) Spiritism believes that the words of Christ are true and necessary for progress.

Now, I know what Spiritism teaches, and I thought I knew what Spiritualism teaches (until I discovered this board). So, there are clearly differences between the two branches.

My question is this: If Spiritism is based on messages from spirit (higher spirits), and if these messengers teach reincarnation, pre-existence and the importance of Christ; and if Spiritualism rejects reincarnation, pre-existence and the importance of Christ; then there seems to be a contradiction. Either Spiritism is correct or Spiritualism is correct; or perhaps both Spiritism is wrong AND Spiritulism is wrong. It seems to put a big question mark on the reliability spirit communication.

My personal faith isn't shaken by the differences of the two branches. I know what I personally believe. But, why would the spirits send contradictory messages regarding these subjects?


Last edited by eirefox on Tue May 08, 2012 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typos)

eirefox


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Post by hiorta Tue May 08, 2012 3:47 pm

The alleged source of Christianity - the teachings of the Jew named Jesus - have been splintered beyond all recognition over time and are still fragmenting.
This seems to be a natural outcome of applying reason to ideas said to be 'divine' in origin.

Spiritualism is really only the out-working of a Natural Law - Life cannot die.

The ramifications of this statement are many and varying and no doubt will continue to expand as further knowledge is gained.
There is no need to make a religion of Natural Law, but it is advisable to examine and learn from them and observe their truths in practice. Accept them as their truths become apparent
hiorta
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Post by KatyKing Tue May 08, 2012 8:29 pm

I'm sure that there's truths in both Spiritism and Spiritualism but we only get to see facets of it on this side 'As through a glass darkly' someone wise once said.
If there's checkable survival evidence then what the hey.
J John a christan stand up comedian has a riff on competing Xtian dogmas along the lines of.....
"There's premillenialists who don't agree with post millenialists who don't agree with amillenialists. Me I'm a panmillenialist. I reckon when we all get to Heaven it'll all pan out somehow"
KatyKing
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Post by Left Behind Tue May 08, 2012 11:26 pm

I think that Spiritualism is sumultaneously moving towards Spiritism (accepting reincarnation, more and more all the time), and away from it (rejecting Christianity, more and more all the time). Crying or Very sad

Classic Spiritism a la Kardec seems to exist only in the old books. Neutral

Spiritism as it is being practiced in the world today seems to be moving more and more toward voodoo. Shocked

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Post by Admin Tue May 08, 2012 11:42 pm

Hi Eirefox, actually they had very different beginnings. Spiritualism started from teh Fox sisters and developed progressively by discussion and meetings, association etc.

Spiritism is founded directly from Allan Kardec, he had an interest in the same phenomena but used it to produce 7 major works which are the theology of Spiritism. They religously adhere to his teachings and teh built on onterpretations of teachers trained in Spiritism. At its heart it is far more rigid and disciplined than Spiritualism with less wriggle room. However its been progressively adapted and stretched particularly from its association with traditional African religions but these are very seperate types of centres.

Personally I am not keen on Kardecs teachings too much punishment especially in his version of reincarnation and too much rigidity. Mediumship in their centres is not proof of survival it is inspirational talking from their mediums.
Admin
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Post by Wes Wed May 09, 2012 2:28 am

Can you be a spiritist if you don't accept re-incarnation or pre-existence?
Wes
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Post by Admin Wed May 09, 2012 2:30 am

No Wes its a part of the package. Kardec's books are their Bible.
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Post by Wes Wed May 09, 2012 3:09 am

Admin wrote:No Wes its a part of the package. Kardec's books are their Bible.

That's interesting, so seeing as there is no way to actually prove either reincarnation or pre-existence are real, a certain leap of faith would be required in order to be a spiritist?
Wes
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Post by Admin Wed May 09, 2012 5:19 am

Absolutely, maybe more so since they are much more atuned to receiving inspirational wisdom from Spirit than to proving the survival of human Spirit. It may appear that this is becoming more important to them than less. Rev Stephen Hermann has noted this when he works with the Spiritists.

Interestingly and contradictorily the Spiritists are the leaders in working on EVP/ITC amongst Spiritualist Groups.
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Post by KatyKing Wed May 09, 2012 12:32 pm

http://buss.moonfruit.com/#/uk-groups/4553957942
British Union of Spiritist Societies website
(Who knew?)
ghost
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Post by eirefox Wed May 09, 2012 2:57 pm

Thanks for the replies.

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Post by Lis Wed May 09, 2012 11:47 pm

How very strange: Sir William Crookes Spiritist society and a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Spiritist society?

I just cannot imagine why the Spiritists are using the names of two people who were most fundamentally either Spiritualist or supporters of Spiritualism and were not in any sense Spiritists.

Lis
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Post by Quiet Thu May 10, 2012 12:16 am

Lis wrote:How very strange: Sir William Crookes Spiritist society and a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Spiritist society?

I just cannot imagine why the Spiritists are using the names of two people who were most fundamentally either Spiritualist or supporters of Spiritualism and were not in any sense Spiritists.

Institutional imperialism Smile Typical of Churches. Remember how Catholicism co-opted many things from paganism Very Happy

And the Wheel of Forgetting goes round and round.

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Post by Lis Thu May 10, 2012 1:18 am

"And the Wheel of Forgetting goes round and round"

How true Quiet!

Lis
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Post by KatyKing Thu May 10, 2012 9:06 pm

By the look of it that BUSS is a bit like the Theosophists in the UK. Lots of one man and his holy dog type quasi meetings without regular venues.
KatyKing
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Post by Left Behind Thu May 10, 2012 11:46 pm

Admin wrote:No Wes its a part of the package. Kardec's books are their Bible.

I wonder what Kardec would think of what's going on in Brazilian Spiritism?


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Post by KatyKing Fri May 11, 2012 3:06 pm

Aieee Caramba!!!!
perhaps?
KatyKing
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Post by Left Behind Fri May 11, 2012 8:52 pm

"Mon Dieu!" or "Sacre Bleu!", more likely!

Jim

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Post by KatyKing Fri May 11, 2012 10:27 pm

Merde alors!
Ces Spiritists Brazilienne il y a fou dans ces tetes.
Pauvre petit poulets mort.
KatyKing
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Post by Left Behind Sat May 12, 2012 3:04 am

I got something about the Brazilian Spiritists being wrong in the head: and poor little dead chickens! Laughing

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Post by KatyKing Sun May 13, 2012 3:50 pm

Oui
Bravo
Aussi le Maitre Docteur Visage-Blanc et son ami Monsieur le Baron Samedi.
Deux hommes populaire dans les Spiritism Brazillienne traditionelle.
Autre nom 'Candomble'.
KatyKing
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Post by Left Behind Sun May 13, 2012 5:53 pm

I'll say. . .

Yes
Welldone
Also, the Master-Doctor White Face and his friend, Sir Baron Samedi.
Two popular men in traditional Brazilian Spiritism.
Also called "Candomble'.


I must still remember a bit from my high school French class with Father Murphy. Smile

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Post by KatyKing Sun May 13, 2012 8:24 pm

And there was me thinking it was Cajun French.
Apropos Father Murphy. His chum Father Dolan had taught my Indian students English hence they came out with heavily accented phrases such as
Now lookit,
Sure that's grand
and
Yer man
None ever said Begorrah - but I was waiting....
KatyKing
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Post by petal34 Sun May 13, 2012 8:33 pm

KatyKing wrote:And there was me thinking it was Cajun French.
Apropos Father Murphy. His chum Father Dolan had taught my Indian students English hence they came out with heavily accented phrases such as
Now lookit,
Sure that's grand
and
Yer man
None ever said Begorrah - but I was waiting....

Eee by gum,can still remember me french.
But ask me to speak it..... Embarassed
The old memory goes..... Laughing
petal34
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Post by KatyKing Sun May 13, 2012 10:17 pm

They teach primary school kids Mandarin Chinese round here. Possibly the coming world language of trade. We had to do French at school and frankly it has never been a bit of use. In Provence where we used to holiday until we became poor following Mrs K's retirement the locals speak Occitan not French and everyone else is English.
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