Did Jesus of Nazareth the legendary founder of Christianity

Hi Admin,
I didn't intend to imply that I represent typical Spiritualism in the USA. I am typical of Spiritualism in the Portland/Vancouver area. As I said in the thread, most Spiritualists in this area are not part of the NSAC because they hold a non-Christian stance. There are 3 churches in our area, and 2 are called "Christian". The 3rd is a newer church (which I haven't visited) and I'm not sure if they belong a denomination or not, nor if they would consider themselves Christian. I'm only spouting my own thoughts. I know I don't represent the NSAC, and said that I wasn't part of them in the thread.
Thanks for the reply. I was afraid that I was being to forceful with my viewpoints. I don't intend to convert anyone, but was only posting my thoughts.

Admin wrote:Hi Eirefox,

No you are allowed to support your own view of Spiritualism on here and discussion is always welcome. However, you speak as if you represent USA Spiritualism. Now I have very good friends in the NSAC two of whom, Rev Anne Gehman and Rev Marilyn Awtry, have been on their board. I know that their views on this subject and my views are very close.

What you are doing is representing more a US Spiritist or Christian Spiritualist viewpoint than the mainstream USA NSAC view or that of the rational Spiritualist centres. Indeed the NSAC do not, in their principles. acknoledge God as God but as the Infinite Intelligence.

I am quite happy for you to defend and represent your view but please acknowledge it only represents that of a minority of the Christian Spiritualist Churches in the USA, in some ways Christian Spiritualism is as diverse as the metaphysical Spiritualist Churches. Your views would probably go well in the Spiritist centres in the USA too.

Spiritualists have a very different structure to their belief in reality, we acknowledge the need to be our own saviour with the help of our guides and require no intermediary between ourselves and God. I can quite understand and accept that some will choose to do so within a Christian foundation and others will not.

In honesty you have brought a lot of interesting points to this thread which is a very worthwhile debate.

Jim

Thats OK Eirefox it would not be right if people could not state there own views on here.

Wes,
Maybe we are disagreeing simply over semantics. I also think that perhaps we disagree over pre-existence. I believe that Jesus was just as human as you and me. He did pre-exist, but I think we all did. So, I believe he is just like all of us. I simply think that God has given him a title above all other people. If you mean by 'divine' that Jesus is God, I don't believe that. I think that God is one. I don't believe Jesus is the same as God. I think he is God's son. I think we are all sons of God.
I read an interesting book by a Jewish man (I don't recall his name.) The book was called "When Jesus Became God." It was based on the history of early Christianity, and how the doctrine of the trinity developed slowly, and was literally forced on the church. It was well written, was not dry at all, and kept my interest. I believe it was very accurate also.
According to the author, Christians were first monotheists. Then the official church stance was that 2 persons were "God" (the Father and the Son). Then, finally the church added the holy spirit to the godhead.

Wes wrote:I for one find the idea of a human Jesus more inspiring than a divine Jesus, as it sets an example of what we as humans are capable of. It's not like his teachings or life would have any less value or meaning if he was "demoted" from divine/human to wholly human. Just as Mohammed's life and teachings would not have any extra value or meaning if the opposite happened and he was "promoted" from wholly human to divine/human.


I do wonder if so much importance was placed on Jesus' divinity to add legitimacy and power to a new religion. There really is no limit on how far people will go once they have a lust for money, power and control over others...

Good Q Wes. What do Christian Spiritualists believe?
I kinda know what orthodox Christians. Methodists,born agains,RCs etc believe. Mainly the same stuff with a few customised flourishes to suit their own tastes and you can more or less unpick their dogma from the NT.
But Christian Spiritualists.. I have never quite got to the bottom of. Mainly because life's too short to be ersed but a booking's a booking so I've served one or two of their churches. GW seems deeply weird. Pre-incarnation and all sorts. We have some Christian Spiritualists in Corinthians and the few I have met seem a right old mixture in the nicest possible way.
One place I used to serve in Essex, GW affiliate but not owned; had a virgin Mary statue up front bedecked in flowers and night lights. Nice people, standard meeting but odd atmosphere. More 'kinda needy' than the looser open-ness you get in a regular Spiritualist meeting. They do seem to defer to their ministers far more than we take notice of anyone.
Hope this doesn't sound rude, each to their own and good luck to all say I.
I use BCP psalms every morning for prayer and meditation and have the greatest respect for Jesus who I do believe existed and was perhaps the greatest medium and healer known to occidental peoples [us]. But all that original sin, guilt-tripiness and their elite cadre of ministers to 'make it happen' for the people in the pews. That's downright unspiritualistic and Jesus is probably laughing his celestial socks off when he's not weeping over some of the nonsense and worse passed off in his name since he was on this side of life.

Did Jesus of Nazereth exist? I don't see how anyone can prove it objectively one way or the other. As far as I can see one must weigh up the evidence and form one's own view.

At the time Jesus was around and doing what is reported, he was really demonstrating for a relatively short period. Few of the foremost writers of the time would have had an opportunity to meet him and validate his claims or existence even if they had been interested. For many years after his death Christianity was reviled until it became the state religion and therefore acceptable. No amount of absent evidence would prove he didn't exist (though we might be inclined to think that he did not, if that was the case). A little evidence might very well be all there could be under the circumstances, even that could have fabricated over the centuries, there is no real way to know for sure. I would suggest therefore that both positions, ie he did exist, and he did not are perfectly tenable and that the dichotomy cannot be resolved to a final conclusion.

When it comes to his miracles and all the other associated signs, I think there is much more room for debate. I guess many of the phenomena he is reported to have demonstrated have been (allegedly) through mediumship even in the last 100 years or so. So if one accepts it has been done in our times, why not in those times?

Eirefox's position seems to me to be certainly reasonable but it does depend on large part on faith. That isn't going to be enough for many people as a basis to commit to. I don't think holding that position is a problem privately however when one suggests or outright states that this is more than a mere matter of opinion it is going to attract adverse comment. This isn't a bad thing necessarily as we can learn from it, it shouldn't be seen necessarily as an attempt to undermine another person's faith.

Having said that, if I wanted to tell everyone what my beliefs were and that I thought they were based on sound logic and factual evidence, I would expect to have to defend that position from othesr who took a different view unless I was in Church when I said it.

Good Q Wes. What do Christian Spiritualists believe?
I kinda know what orthodox Christians. Methodists,born agains,RCs etc believe. Mainly the same stuff with a few customised flourishes to suit their own tastes and you can more or less unpick their dogma from the NT.
But Christian Spiritualists.. I have never quite got to the bottom of. Mainly because life's too short to be ersed but a booking's a booking so I've served one or two of their churches. GW seems deeply weird. Pre-incarnation and all sorts. We have some Christian Spiritualists in Corinthians and the few I have met seem a right old mixture in the nicest possible way.
One place I used to serve in Essex, GW affiliate but not owned; had a virgin Mary statue up front bedecked in flowers and night lights. Nice people, standard meeting but odd atmosphere. More 'kinda needy' than the looser open-ness you get in a regular Spiritualist meeting. They do seem to defer to their ministers far more than we take notice of anyone.
Hope this doesn't sound rude, each to their own and good luck to all say I.
I use BCP psalms every morning for prayer and meditation and have the greatest respect for Jesus who I do believe existed and was perhaps the greatest medium and healer known to occidental peoples [us]. But all that original sin, guilt-tripiness and their elite cadre of ministers to 'make it happen' for the people in the pews. That's downright unspiritualistic and Jesus is probably laughing his celestial socks off when he's not weeping over some of the nonsense and worse passed off in his name since he was on this side of life.

Ooops double post. Sorry.

eirefox wrote:Hi Quiet,
Well, I've heard the argument that the Bible has been written and re-written so many times that it's not accurate. I personally don't believe that. The Jews were very careful when they copied the Bible. The monks were also very careful when they made copies of the Scriptures. If you do an online search of how they copied the scriptures in days-gone-by, I think you might come to a different conclusion.

Thanks for your response. eirefox. I didn't see it until today

With respect, I don't think it is good enough to simply say that the Jews were very careful when they copied the Bible. How on earth would you know that? And what were they copying? Same with the monks. Now I know the monks were great copiers - there is plenty of evidence of that - but we absolutely don't know much about the original sources, what was left out and what was permitted to be copied. Consulting Dr. Google Ph.D is not going to lead to any conclusion other than that the question is open.

I don't doubt that Christ existed and that his teachings were beautiful and universal. You can seenconsistency in the principles of the other great faiths.

And I think this debate, as such, is pretty meaningless ultimately. Individuals to develop their own beliefs through their own background and capacity. And we understand things better through allegory and experience. We develop our own faith, symbology and meaning accordingly. It's interesting to keep talking though because that is partly how I learn

I haven't gotten around to reading Kardec and other material about Spiritism yet and I may or may not. At my age I have to make wise decisions about how I spend my time and energy.

And that doesn't matter. We are all on our own quest.

Your knowledge and insight might not be mine but if we can respect the difference and value the commonalities then we might be friends. If people from all faiths could believe that then things might be a bit more peaceful.

But people can't always claim that history and fact are on their side because quite often they simply are not. There are many versions of history and facts are transient and changeable

But people can't always claim that history and fact are on their side because quite often they simply are not. There are many versions of history and facts are transient and changeable

Beautifully put Quite and a very good post too. I think this discussion has really been worthwhile too.

Jim

I do tend to 'debate', but not as much as I used to. Although, I truly wasn't trying to debate, so much as simply answer questions. I really wasn't aware that the NSU was different than the type of Spiritualism I know here in Oregon/Washington. I guess I never thought about it before! It's been kind of a surprise to me to correspond with you and others on this board! But that's OK. This gives me something to think about now.
I do attempt to validate my own beliefs, more for myself than for others.
I appreciate you insight and kind words.
Mike (Eirefox)

Quiet wrote:

eirefox wrote:Hi Quiet,
Well, I've heard the argument that the Bible has been written and re-written so many times that it's not accurate. I personally don't believe that. The Jews were very careful when they copied the Bible. The monks were also very careful when they made copies of the Scriptures. If you do an online search of how they copied the scriptures in days-gone-by, I think you might come to a different conclusion.

Thanks for your response. eirefox. I didn't see it until today

With respect, I don't think it is good enough to simply say that the Jews were very careful when they copied the Bible. How on earth would you know that? And what were they copying? Same with the monks. Now I know the monks were great copiers - there is plenty of evidence of that - but we absolutely don't know much about the original sources, what was left out and what was permitted to be copied. Consulting Dr. Google Ph.D is not going to lead to any conclusion other than that the question is open.

I don't doubt that Christ existed and that his teachings were beautiful and universal. You can seenconsistency in the principles of the other great faiths.

And I think this debate, as such, is pretty meaningless ultimately. Individuals to develop their own beliefs through their own background and capacity. And we understand things better through allegory and experience. We develop our own faith, symbology and meaning accordingly. It's interesting to keep talking though because that is partly how I learn

I haven't gotten around to reading Kardec and other material about Spiritism yet and I may or may not. At my age I have to make wise decisions about how I spend my time and energy.

And that doesn't matter. We are all on our own quest.

Your knowledge and insight might not be mine but if we can respect the difference and value the commonalities then we might be friends. If people from all faiths could believe that then things might be a bit more peaceful.

But people can't always claim that history and fact are on their side because quite often they simply are not. There are many versions of history and facts are transient and changeable

KatyKing,
I'm not familiar with "GW". What does that stand for?
Mike (Eirefox)

KatyKing wrote:Good Q Wes. What do Christian Spiritualists believe?
I kinda know what orthodox Christians. Methodists,born agains,RCs etc believe. Mainly the same stuff with a few customised flourishes to suit their own tastes and you can more or less unpick their dogma from the NT.
But Christian Spiritualists.. I have never quite got to the bottom of. Mainly because life's too short to be ersed but a booking's a booking so I've served one or two of their churches. GW seems deeply weird. Pre-incarnation and all sorts. We have some Christian Spiritualists in Corinthians and the few I have met seem a right old mixture in the nicest possible way.
One place I used to serve in Essex, GW affiliate but not owned; had a virgin Mary statue up front bedecked in flowers and night lights. Nice people, standard meeting but odd atmosphere. More 'kinda needy' than the looser open-ness you get in a regular Spiritualist meeting. They do seem to defer to their ministers far more than we take notice of anyone.
Hope this doesn't sound rude, each to their own and good luck to all say I.
I use BCP psalms every morning for prayer and meditation and have the greatest respect for Jesus who I do believe existed and was perhaps the greatest medium and healer known to occidental peoples [us]. But all that original sin, guilt-tripiness and their elite cadre of ministers to 'make it happen' for the people in the pews. That's downright unspiritualistic and Jesus is probably laughing his celestial socks off when he's not weeping over some of the nonsense and worse passed off in his name since he was on this side of life.

Thanks to all who participated in this thread. It was a real eye-opener for me.
Never having visited Spiritualist Churches out of my own area, I wasn't even aware that Spiritualists elsewhere believed differently than me.
I was aware that many Spiritualists didn't believe in reincarnation, but I guess I assumed that all Spiritualists believed in pre-existence. So, this has been an eye-opener for me.
You've given me something to study now! And something to think about.
I hope no one things of me as a fanatic, nor as opinionated.
I don't believe I'm either. I think I just wasn't aware of the beliefs of other types of Spiritualists.
I guess this SpiritualismLink is doing it's job of making everyone aware of Spiritualism.... including Spiritualists!

eirefox wrote:Thanks to all who participated in this thread. It was a real eye-opener for me.
Never having visited Spiritualist Churches out of my own area, I wasn't even aware that Spiritualists elsewhere believed differently than me.
I was aware that many Spiritualists didn't believe in reincarnation, but I guess I assumed that all Spiritualists believed in pre-existence. So, this has been an eye-opener for me.
You've given me something to study now! And something to think about.
I hope no one things of me as a fanatic, nor as opinionated.
I don't believe I'm either. I think I just wasn't aware of the beliefs of other types of Spiritualists.
I guess this SpiritualismLink is doing it's job of making everyone aware of Spiritualism.... including Spiritualists!

Hopefully spiritualists don't have many "beliefs" as to believe something can mean holding it to be true without having logical or reasonable evidence to support it being true. What Spiritulaists try and do is provide knowledge and experience to show that things like life after death do exist. The bible by itself can't do that, as it is very risky to hold something to be true if you have no direct personal experience of it. Knowledge that something is true is far more valuable than believing, or wanting to believe, that something is true.

Pre-existence may require a bit more explanation, does it relate to our souls pre-existing our physical lives, or our personalities and consciousness pre-existing our physical lives?

GW is Greater Wold Christian Spiritualist Association Mike .
They are the main Christian Spiitualist denomination in England. There's a website. Can't post hyperlinks on Kindle but Google will find them or search 'Winifred Moyes wiki'. She was the founder.
Very strange beliefs. They follow trance wisdom via Winnie from a character known as Zodiac.

When I speak of pre-existence, I mean our personalities and consciousness pre-exist our physical lives. From my viewpoint, if our personality and consciousness didn't pre-exist, then there really is no pre-existence. I think we did pre-exist.

Wes wrote:

eirefox wrote:Thanks to all who participated in this thread. It was a real eye-opener for me.
Never having visited Spiritualist Churches out of my own area, I wasn't even aware that Spiritualists elsewhere believed differently than me.
I was aware that many Spiritualists didn't believe in reincarnation, but I guess I assumed that all Spiritualists believed in pre-existence. So, this has been an eye-opener for me.
You've given me something to study now! And something to think about.
I hope no one things of me as a fanatic, nor as opinionated.
I don't believe I'm either. I think I just wasn't aware of the beliefs of other types of Spiritualists.
I guess this SpiritualismLink is doing it's job of making everyone aware of Spiritualism.... including Spiritualists!

Hopefully spiritualists don't have many "beliefs" as to believe something can mean holding it to be true without having logical or reasonable evidence to support it being true. What Spiritulaists try and do is provide knowledge and experience to show that things like life after death do exist. The bible by itself can't do that, as it is very risky to hold something to be true if you have no direct personal experience of it. Knowledge that something is true is far more valuable than believing, or wanting to believe, that something is true.

Pre-existence may require a bit more explanation, does it relate to our souls pre-existing our physical lives, or our personalities and consciousness pre-existing our physical lives?

I found thier website. I was surprised at how many churches they have here in the USA. None in Washington and Oregon, but a lot in other states. I'd never even heard of them.

KatyKing wrote:GW is Greater Wold Christian Spiritualist Association Mike .
They are the main Christian Spiitualist denomination in England. There's a website. Can't post hyperlinks on Kindle but Google will find them or search 'Winifred Moyes wiki'. She was the founder.
Very strange beliefs. They follow trance wisdom via Winnie from a character known as Zodiac.

I had no idea they were in USA too.
You live and learn eh?

Been there a long time KK and in Oz, surprised you know so little about what goes on, especially how much you appear to know. Takes research and a study of history facinating though.

Well I live and learn Jim, as my old dad was wont to say....
A day without learning is a day wasted.

I wonder did Winifred Moyes take the GW message to Oz and USA or were those groups planted by locals or emigrants-to.
Anyone know?

The one in Adelaide was started by a local one Rosina Tingey in 1934 with the involvement of her mother and father. Rosa had a complete article about her in one GW newsletter about an interview she did on ABC radio back in the 1950's. She was Grand President of the Church until her passing in 1967, at that stage it was merging with the New Age Spiritualist Mission (founded in 1921) and had dropped the Christian Spiritualism out.

I believe that was how many of the overseas GW churches started. Of course the Mission building is named after her the Rosa Tingey Centre.

That's interesting Eirefox, and might be worth a thread of its own!

eirefox wrote:When I speak of pre-existence, I mean our personalities and consciousness pre-exist our physical lives. From my viewpoint, if our personality and consciousness didn't pre-exist, then there really is no pre-existence. I think we did pre-exist.

Wes wrote:

eirefox wrote:Thanks to all who participated in this thread. It was a real eye-opener for me.
Never having visited Spiritualist Churches out of my own area, I wasn't even aware that Spiritualists elsewhere believed differently than me.
I was aware that many Spiritualists didn't believe in reincarnation, but I guess I assumed that all Spiritualists believed in pre-existence. So, this has been an eye-opener for me.
You've given me something to study now! And something to think about.
I hope no one things of me as a fanatic, nor as opinionated.
I don't believe I'm either. I think I just wasn't aware of the beliefs of other types of Spiritualists.
I guess this SpiritualismLink is doing it's job of making everyone aware of Spiritualism.... including Spiritualists!

Hopefully spiritualists don't have many "beliefs" as to believe something can mean holding it to be true without having logical or reasonable evidence to support it being true. What Spiritulaists try and do is provide knowledge and experience to show that things like life after death do exist. The bible by itself can't do that, as it is very risky to hold something to be true if you have no direct personal experience of it. Knowledge that something is true is far more valuable than believing, or wanting to believe, that something is true.

Pre-existence may require a bit more explanation, does it relate to our souls pre-existing our physical lives, or our personalities and consciousness pre-existing our physical lives?

I can' get a handle on GW teaching on pre existene. In their book Questions you may be aslked its clearly implied that this life is culmination of a series in some way. Haven' found that expamded on but then again Ionly have that one book apart from their service book and that's very good for funerals.

There's a whole philosophy behind the Doctrine of Pre-existence. I can see why someone would NOT believe in it. But, on the other hand, I personally think the philosophy is logical, and it answers a lot of tough questions regarding suffering, injustice and death.

KatyKing wrote:I can' get a handle on GW teaching on pre existene. In their book Questions you may be aslked its clearly implied that this life is culmination of a series in some way. Haven' found that expamded on but then again Ionly have that one book apart from their service book and that's very good for funerals.

There's a traition in Judaism that says that dent under our nose above our lips is caused by an angel touching us there just before we are born so that we forget what we knew in our pre-existence...
Poem here about it... (Found via Google)...
A Sinai in the Womb -

The Prayer of an Unborn Child



Touch me lightly neath the nose

That my lips may part in prose

Let me not forget

You though

I fall into the world



Let luminescence last me still

and still my heart

With seraph quill

If I fall too far to hear

& memorize your notes



Send a script

A scrap of timber

A stub of finger

'quipped with pencil

May my new-born

have utensils

to inherit as she grows



And I will write what I have learned here

In this hollow, warm and light-filled



So touch me slight

That I may

Recite all that

the angel quill

inscribed upon my soul



And from this amniotic Sinai

I will find the voice to cry

the truth

though all the world

would call it lies



And though I fall

insane, forgetful

slap my lips and

snuff my candle

yet I will remember well

the angel

that taught me all I know



and marked thus with

indentation

I will recall

the revelation

of this loom

where God wove with love

my soul



For Sinai stands

indelible

above our lips

to tell of all

that we forget

as sure as

we are born



So let us thus pursue

Your truths

in deja vu

wrap us well in

what we knew

there in the womb



And Sinai

will be as a mother

enfolding us to rediscover

the radiance lost in the rubble

of the shattered tablets

of Your

Truth