Have you seen this?

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Have you seen this?

Post by Jane Lyzell on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:28 pm

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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:03 pm

I still remain unconvinced and see absolutely no reason for working in the dark with a table given the exceptional experience we had here in normal light.

Maybe Braude's actual report will give us more.

Jim
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:44 pm

I hesitate to cross-post but a similar discussion was going on on Michael Prescott's website. So I re-post my comment below:

Thanks for the link - very interesting. I have time for Stephen Braude having read one or two of his books. I can see why he would reserve judgement - very sensible at this stage. There are no controls really as he says and as he mentions himself it isn't evidential in any sense, more a curiosity. I have to say I'd agree.

In particular I thought the table-movements were interesting, but Braude accepts that more controls are needed for fraud (or ideomotor effect?) to be excluded. He did mention in the post-presentation questions that there was an IR camera under the table, if that showed the table was off the floor and there was no mechanism for fraud - that would be curious indeed (he didn't say that though). So, for me, interesting yes, but evidence of what exactly?

As it is at the moment, I don't really see the point of the phenomena demonstrated - what are the ostensible communicators intending to show in this type of situation? I don't see that this necessarily even means there were any external communicators at all if psychokinesis is a potential explanation for example (though that would be interesting in itself).

If the phenomena are genuine, I'd say they'd need a lot more development before I tried to convince others that there was anything worth thinking about, other than for entertainment purposes.

A curiosity yes, but at the moment I can't see any real value in it to a wider audience - have I missed the point? (it wouldn't be the first time!). Smile

obiwan


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:50 pm

Apologies if I appear to be relentlessly sceptical Smile

obiwan


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:15 am

Well so am I about much of this, thanks for posting that Obi, as I said to require darkness for moving or levitating is absolutely unnecessary so it makes me question it all even more.
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:15 am

zorro
obiwan wrote:I hesitate to cross-post but a similar discussion was going on on Michael Prescott's website. So I re-post my comment below:

Thanks for the link - very interesting. I have time for Stephen Braude having read one or two of his books. I can see why he would reserve judgement - very sensible at this stage. There are no controls really as he says and as he mentions himself it isn't evidential in any sense, more a curiosity. I have to say I'd agree.

In particular I thought the table-movements were interesting, but Braude accepts that more controls are needed for fraud (or ideomotor effect?) to be excluded. He did mention in the post-presentation questions that there was an IR camera under the table, if that showed the table was off the floor and there was no mechanism for fraud - that would be curious indeed (he didn't say that though). So, for me, interesting yes, but evidence of what exactly?

As it is at the moment, I don't really see the point of the phenomena demonstrated - what are the ostensible communicators intending to show in this type of situation? I don't see that this necessarily even means there were any external communicators at all if psychokinesis is a potential explanation for example (though that would be interesting in itself).

If the phenomena are genuine, I'd say they'd need a lot more development before I tried to convince others that there was anything worth thinking about, other than for entertainment purposes.

A curiosity yes, but at the moment I can't see any real value in it to a wider audience - have I missed the point? (it wouldn't be the first time!). Smile

zorro spott on darts
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by LeroyC on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:13 pm

What would be of interest is if this circle in German actually got some survival EVIDENCE!!...I see little mention of that

Leroy C

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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:22 pm

Hi Leroy I have not heard of any just phenomena
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by MU!! on Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:36 pm

I've taken Kai to task on FOY's forum over the matter of evidence for survival and got his usual mish-mosh of broken English, excuses and "is evidence to me maybe not to you".

In short, he has none.


Last edited by MU!! on Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mac showed MU!! The Knife of Truth correctly correcting MU!! re: MU!!'s missssspelling of FOY now correctly corrected)

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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Jane Lyzell on Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:01 am

MU!! wrote:I've taken Kai to task on Fey's forum over the matter of evidence for survival and got his usual mish-mosh of broken English, excuses and "is evidence to me maybe not to you".

In short, he has none.

I´m not suprised silent
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by MU!! on Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:00 pm

For anyone interested, Dr. Stephen Braude has commented on his Felix Circle examinations here by podcast...

Felix Experimental Group

His description of the ectoplasm...at one point there was a mass of it on the floor and it appeared to be pulsating, breathing. And at another point it seemed to develop a hand-like appendage and rise up and move left and right, like a cobra. Braude to be extremely credible however he is examining phenomena not survival evidence.

Muegge may be on the path to develop survival evidence via ectoplasmic materialization but he is not there yet. No

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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by mac on Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:30 am

MU!! wrote:I've taken Kai to task on Fey's forum over the matter of evidence for survival and got his usual mish-mosh of broken English, excuses and "is evidence to me maybe not to you".

In short, he has none.

Foy

mac


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by MU!! on Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:36 am

mac wrote:
MU!! wrote:I've taken Kai to task on Fey's forum over the matter of evidence for survival and got his usual mish-mosh of broken English, excuses and "is evidence to me maybe not to you".

In short, he has none.

Foy

Fooey. lol!

MU!!


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by hiorta on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:13 am

""The only way to prove that we all survive the death of our physical bodies is by repeatable experiments under laboratory conditions with the results published in a leading scientific publication. The experiments must consist of recently deceased internationally famous people being physically reunited with their friends and relatives who are still on Earth. All five senses must be working and the deceased people must be walking around the room speaking with the same voices they had while on Earth.

We almost got there in 1874 when Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments with the materialisation medium Florence Cook in The Quarterly Journal of Science. However, the person who materialised every time an experiment was carried out had died so long ago that Sir William was unable to reunite this person with any living friends and relatives. This experiment has now been carried out, but only by a journalist, Alan Cleaver. Please refer to The Cleaver Report on this website.

Everything now rests on a contemporary materialisation medium coming forward and putting his or her trust in the hands of a qualified scientific team made up of people who follow and indeed agree with the findings of Sir William Crookes and Sir Oliver Lodge - that we all survive the death of our physical bodies, that we are dealing with natural and normal forces in the universe. Please refer to Sir Oliver Lodge’s article on this website, ’The Mode of Future Existence’. The safety of the medium must be number one priority at all costs. Scientists who start from the false base that death is the end of everything have far too much to lose from such revolutionary experiments""

An excerpt from www.cfpf.org

I hope it may be of some interest.
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by obiwan on Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:57 am

Thanks Hiorta's. is that link correct? I think it's Www.cfpf.org.uk

obiwan


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:12 pm

hiorta wrote:""The only way to prove that we all survive the death of our physical bodies is by repeatable experiments under laboratory conditions with the results published in a leading scientific publication. The experiments must consist of recently deceased internationally famous people being physically reunited with their friends and relatives who are still on Earth. All five senses must be working and the deceased people must be walking around the room speaking with the same voices they had while on Earth.

We almost got there in 1874 when Sir William Crookes published the results of his experiments with the materialisation medium Florence Cook in The Quarterly Journal of Science. However, the person who materialised every time an experiment was carried out had died so long ago that Sir William was unable to reunite this person with any living friends and relatives. This experiment has now been carried out, but only by a journalist, Alan Cleaver. Please refer to The Cleaver Report on this website.

Everything now rests on a contemporary materialisation medium coming forward and putting his or her trust in the hands of a qualified scientific team made up of people who follow and indeed agree with the findings of Sir William Crookes and Sir Oliver Lodge - that we all survive the death of our physical bodies, that we are dealing with natural and normal forces in the universe. Please refer to Sir Oliver Lodge’s article on this website, ’The Mode of Future Existence’. The safety of the medium must be number one priority at all costs. Scientists who start from the false base that death is the end of everything have far too much to lose from such revolutionary experiments""

An excerpt from www.cfpf.org

I hope it may be of some interest.

Totaly aggre if it shuld bee in that way:-) - I´men it is fore the greeving most ore?

I´m fore the sinetiffic way thats way i have them in my circle
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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by nick pettitt on Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:49 pm

I'm not so sure that we can 'prove' that we all survive death to 'everyone' The best we can do is provide evidence which each individual will evaluate in their own way to reach their own conclusion.
Even a walking, talking materialization that looks like, sounds like, has a recognizable character and recalls memories only known to it and the sitter, could be understood by some as produced from some database that records and stores everything we do...

nick pettitt


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by MU!! on Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:21 pm

I know Mr. Roll.

MU!!


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by obiwan on Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:22 am

MU!! wrote:I know Mr. Roll.
and.....?

obiwan


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by mac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:24 am

hi obi - you're up late!

mac


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by MU!! on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:10 am

obiwan wrote:
MU!! wrote:I know Mr. Roll.
and.....?
...is there a particular question about him or his endeavors?

MU!!


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by mac on Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:21 am

A question from whom?

mac


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by obiwan on Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:03 am

MU!! wrote:
obiwan wrote:
MU!! wrote:I know Mr. Roll.
and.....?
...is there a particular question about him or his endeavors?
I presumed there was some reason for mentioning the fact that you know him.

obiwan


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by MU!! on Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:41 pm

If anyone has any questions regarding Mr. Roll, I might be an excellent source for answers. If not, then well be well.

MU!!


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Re: Have you seen this?

Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:58 pm

nick pettitt wrote:I'm not so sure that we can 'prove' that we all survive death to 'everyone' The best we can do is provide evidence which each individual will evaluate in their own way to reach their own conclusion.
Even a walking, talking materialization that looks like, sounds like, has a recognizable character and recalls memories only known to it and the sitter, could be understood by some as produced from some database that records and stores everything we do...

That is a problem - hope we can goth profs some day for survavel :-)
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Re: Have you seen this?

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