A very heavy heart about all this

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by mac on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:08 pm

quote, Kai Muegge, April 22: "...who can call himself an expert how ectoplasm has to look like! Depending on the physiology of the medium it can look pretty much different...."

I didn't put my point well. Any manipulation into other forms isn't what I was getting at. Let's compare the first posting of this thread with what Kai has written, the small piece quoted above. If he's correct, it could be one reason that experienced mediums and/or sitters thought the ectoplasm produced from his body didn't look authentic. I'm looking for reasons to explain why some saw one thing when others saw the opposite, reasons other than fraud.....

I'm glad you agree that phenomena have no value in themselves and we'll simply have to wait to see if they later lead on to materialisation and eventually evidential mediumship - it's not always the case and even when it is the road can be a long one.

But I always wonder if early interest is more in the phenomena than in the practitioner's progression into evidential medium?

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by nick pettitt on Sun Apr 29, 2012 3:59 pm

mac wrote:quote, Kai Muegge, April 22: "...who can call himself an expert how ectoplasm has to look like! Depending on the physiology of the medium it can look pretty much different...."

I didn't put my point well. Any manipulation into other forms isn't what I was getting at. Let's compare the first posting of this thread with what Kai has written, the small piece quoted above. If he's correct, it could be one reason that experienced mediums and/or sitters thought the ectoplasm produced from his body didn't look authentic. I'm looking for reasons to explain why some saw one thing when others saw the opposite, reasons other than fraud.....

I'm glad you agree that phenomena have no value in themselves and we'll simply have to wait to see if they later lead on to materialisation and eventually evidential mediumship - it's not always the case and even when it is the road can be a long one.

But I always wonder if early interest is more in the phenomena than in the practitioner's progression into evidential medium?

I'm no expert on ectoplasm but what I've so far learnt from talking to communicators at seances is it's a natural substance that exists around and within all living things, including plants. It's invisible and intangible and has something to do with the growth and formation of the physical part of each living thing. In seance conditions spirit operators are able to add something to it to make it visible and tangible and then shape it with their thoughts into whatever they want. So what Kai says about the physiology of the medium affecting how it looks makes sense to me.

Your wonderings if early interest is more in the phenomena than in the practitioner's progression into an evidential medium is probably true to a point but I knew most of the sitters at Kai's Saturday seance and they were all either mediums or sitters in developing physical circles and were there to witness how Kai worked and his progression to date...

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by mac on Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:25 pm

nick pettitt wrote:
mac wrote:quote, Kai Muegge, April 22: "...who can call himself an expert how ectoplasm has to look like! Depending on the physiology of the medium it can look pretty much different...."

I didn't put my point well. Any manipulation into other forms isn't what I was getting at. Let's compare the first posting of this thread with what Kai has written, the small piece quoted above. If he's correct, it could be one reason that experienced mediums and/or sitters thought the ectoplasm produced from his body didn't look authentic. I'm looking for reasons to explain why some saw one thing when others saw the opposite, reasons other than fraud.....

I'm glad you agree that phenomena have no value in themselves and we'll simply have to wait to see if they later lead on to materialisation and eventually evidential mediumship - it's not always the case and even when it is the road can be a long one.

But I always wonder if early interest is more in the phenomena than in the practitioner's progression into evidential medium?

I'm no expert on ectoplasm but what I've so far learnt from talking to communicators at seances is it's a natural substance that exists around and within all living things, including plants. It's invisible and intangible and has something to do with the growth and formation of the physical part of each living thing. In seance conditions spirit operators are able to add something to it to make it visible and tangible and then shape it with their thoughts into whatever they want. So what Kai says about the physiology of the medium affecting how it looks makes sense to me.

Your wonderings if early interest is more in the phenomena than in the practitioner's progression into an evidential medium is probably true to a point but I knew most of the sitters at Kai's Saturday seance and they were all either mediums or sitters in developing physical circles and were there to witness how Kai worked and his progression to date...



As I see matters, appearance and initial structure might vary if a different formulation is used or if contaminants are present. Perhaps that's what's meant by the effect of one's physiology?

Maybe that's why the ectoplasm from Kai looked different, and maybe behaved differently, from what was expected?

Fair comment about those present at the sitting - thanks.

mac


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Physical Mediumship: a perspective

Post by LeroyC on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:05 pm

Hello everyone,

Please note the the views I raise here are mine alone, they are my observations which I am happyto have supported or rejected. This is my first post, but I have for want of a better word 'lurked' on the site for some time, and read many posts.

I come from a background in Spiritualism of some 40 years experience. I have been fortunate to have sat with many of the 'modern' physical mediums. My experiences are therefore practical, they have not just come out of books. In that time I have witnessed MOST forms of the physical phenomena produced; much of it in red light. I have not had the fortune of 'Zerdini' who has witnessed red light materialisation in full form, but few of us to date have.

I am pretty sure 'Zerdini' knows me, as I was a long standing member of the NAS; I certainly know him. I agree entirely with the premis that physical phenomena without the evidence of survival is a complete waste of time.

However, I have also been reading about comments regarding another 'site' supported by an NAS associate which deals with physical mediumship. Let me say now, that I am very saddened by the way the subject of physical phenomena is treated and dealt with today. There appears to be a plethora of so called 'wanabees' and deluded individuals who THINK they have this gift. The late Allan Crossley was a dear friend of mine, and I have hours of our conversations recorded on this subject; and most would agree that dear Allan was a world renound expert on the phenomena. I am sure he is far from happy with devlopments.

I am particularly intrigued and worried by this thread, and the obvious upset caused by alleged fraudulent phenomena from the German medium Kai Muggai ( sorry if I have this spelt wrong ! ) to the poster. I am unable to comment on this medium as I have never sat with the gentleman; but there does appear to be a plethora of 'self publicity' by the circle and the medium. Of course it should also be noted that the Germans tend to like the phenomena at the expense of the evidence !. Strange, but that is what it seems to be.

I suppose as the sceptics say extrordinary claims require extrordinary evidence !. I have however sat with a number of 'dubious' individuals who profess to be physical mediums and offer no survival evidence. In particular my experiences with a certain 'Mr Caylor' left me both traumatised and depressed for some considerable time afterwards.

That said, may I also make some observations.

In relation to ectoplasm there is no 'one type of structure'. It can take many and varied forms from the 'strong as steel' manifestations recorded by Crawford to the invisble. To label the phenomen as fraud without further investigation may be premature. In particlar Spiritualists can be thier own worst enemies. While much is bad about the modern growth of 'physical mediumship', it is not all so. There appears to be on this site a mutual dislike of anyone developing physical phenomena.

I know that sounds strong, but we have no idea how many people may be sitting in love and harmony in the safe confines of their home circle to develop these gifts. The problem is they often feel they need to go public; and as in the case of many mental mediums who expose themselves without adequate development, the results are dire..There is often NO evidence. I feel harmony is the key and unless we all work together we will get nothing. That is why the ITC manifestations of the 1990's are not being experienced today. Quite simply anomosity and disharmony amongst the ITC researchers have affected the phenomena.

As for sitting in the dark; then quite clearly some mediums may reqiuire this for their development. It does not mean they are necessarily fraudulent. There has been some concern about the fees that these physical mediums are charging to attend seances. My own view is that apart from their exepenses they should not charge, indeed I never have for any of my contributions to Spiritualism over the years. That said, the popular mental mediums also charge.

I am also remined of Colin Fry, a medium who I have sat with on many occasions in a physical circle, but I believe now concentrates upon his mediumistic career on TV and theatres. Zerdini I feel will know much more about this and may wish to comment. I am reminded also that Colin sat in darkness while demonstrating physical. Does the fact he charged for his physical seances and is charging for his mental mediumship make him any less of a medium, or that he needed to sit in the dark ?.

The vitriol of 'labeling all with the same brush' does nothng for our cause. I do not know who 'Katy King' is who post on here, and I seriously wonder by 'her?' comments about physical mediums just how much practical experience she has had in the seance room. However such comments do NOTHING to promote harmony and understanding, and unfortuantely that is one person I would let no where near a physical devlopment circle. This is a classic example of why Spiritualists are their own worst enemies!

We do need to flush out the fraudulent and not accept the mundane. We need to judge by the evidence if we are not to be a laughing stock, but we should also remember that it was physical mediumship that started modern Spiritualism, and i for one hope in time we can re establish it a central core of survival evidence.

Regards,

LeroyC

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Admin on Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:52 pm

Some very good comments coming up on here thank you all.

Jim
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by mac on Tue May 01, 2012 8:11 am

Maybe the biggest problem is one similar to that also found in mental mediumship? Practitioners appear in the public eye at way-too-early a stage in their development.

But physical mediumship especially seems to attract interest and adulation with followers desperate to witness the next demonstration of spectacular phenomena. Perhaps their followers also care about the true significance of phenomena, as waymarkers along a path which may eventually lead to reliable and predictable evidential mediumship - or do they?

We're discussing, debating and falling out over individuals who usually give the impression they delight in public recognition. Perhaps they also care about becoming evidential mediums - or perhaps their celebrity is what really matters? Perhaps they also care about becoming evidential mediums or perhaps it's just celebrity that really matters to them? If so we're giving 'em what they crave and no concerns about fraud, no adverse publicity about the standard of their mediumship, is gonna matter bother them much.

There's a saying that goes along the lines 'no such thing as bad publicity' and while these individuals are the centre of attention - any attention - they're lovin' it. They have a website which promotes their interests and prevents critical attention. What more could one wish?



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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Admin on Wed May 09, 2012 7:28 am

Of course this video is around from Stephen Braude's investigation which the Felix Circle agreed to.

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by KatyKing on Wed May 09, 2012 5:03 pm

Interesting post Leroy. I've been around for quite a while and seen the ebb and flow of PM over close on forty years. We'e in a phase now of a few phenomena to order commercial showmen all bigging up their own performances vis their acolytes online. It' a cottage industry. The dark showmen pack out the dodgy venues and they plus the promoter makes a nice little earner.
The same faces trop round from one to another. PM is a hobby for some and fair play.
I'm all in favour of genuine PM but reckon most of that occurs on the quiet in publicity shunning private circles. The signsand wonders brigade on the other hand feed off the oxygen of publicity. Hence I've more or less given up on writing about them.
Each to their own say I and if folk are happy to shell out forty quid a time for a dark show then good luck to 'em. I'm told it costs that to watch a soccer match these days.
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Lis on Wed May 09, 2012 10:57 pm

Well at least you see something for your forty quid at a soccer match KK!

Lis
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Lis on Wed May 09, 2012 11:08 pm

What is interesting about the video clip really is that the 'table-tilting' is most probably genuine - having seen and been involved with such an activity where there was absolutely no way there was any fraud happening - I know that it can be genuine. That of course does not mean that the 'cabinet seances' are also genuine. A smooth operator would undoubtedly put on a genuine show of one type of phenomena in order to encourage (seduce) people to believe that the cabinet phenomena was also genuine.

While I agree with you KK that to ignore those 'physical mediums' who continually blow their own trumpet (no pun intended) is really the best way to approach the current situation, I think that on this occasion, that is by Jim posting the video, it offers us an interesting new insight into the Felix circle.

At least they allowed researchers in, though clearly placed restraints on what could be achieved. That is a step forward. Until all the so-called, self-proclaimed PMs agree to rigid scientific testing they must remain in the category of unproven. As such, questions marks will always be set against their work and their name.

Lis
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Admin on Thu May 10, 2012 1:05 am

It is interesting that in this video Stephen Braude implies that the investigations may continue. However, to date there has been no mention of further contact by either he or the Felix Circle albeit I note they now refer to his favourable research on their site.
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by KatyKing on Thu May 10, 2012 12:46 pm

Lis wrote:Well at least you see something for your forty quid at a soccer match KK!

Basketball She shoots, she scores!
GOAL!!!! Very Happy
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Admin on Sun Jun 22, 2014 11:22 pm

Well we now find that Stephen Braude has backtracked a long way. http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t1145p255-physical-mediumship-in-dark-or-light

See the last page
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by LeroyC on Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:07 am

Thank you for the link admin.

This unfortunately does not surprise me. I am getting more depressed all the time by the level of so called 'physical mediumship' that is being banded about. Of course one thing that the Felix group are good at is self promotion.

As for Stephen Braude, then the FIRST thing I would be looking for is survival evidence. I don't think Kai gets much. They are all phenomena based ( if we can call it that now ).

If people are stupid enough to support this 'dark show' and pay good money to this outfit then they need to re-evaluate what they think Spiritualism is supposed to be all about.

As I have said, after 40 yrs plus in this movement I have had enough. I do very little now ( well reply to the odd thing on these forums ! ) as I am disgusted with the movement now.

Unfortunately there are just too many chancers who are out to make a quick buck. if Kai is all he says he is then he should have no problem being tested under the most rigorous test conditions set n by experienced Spiritualist and researchers. ( a bit like Warren Caylor was offered but declined ).

I have spent many years lecturing and giving talks to Spiritualist and other groups ( and a few on here will know me ). in all that time I NEVER charged a penny, not even for fuel. The only time I have charged is ONCE, since I retired as I have not the same level of income now, and decided once retired I would need to for fuel.

I am not advocating this for everyone, it was my choice, but I do question some 'mediums' motives and commitment to the truth.

LeroyC

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:50 am

Leroy thanks for the comments I am entirely in agreement with you. Following Lis, my wife, as leader of an organisation (she did 11 years I am in my 5th) I am more disenchanted now than before. I think the phenomena has won over people far too much, indeed it just has to be phenomena not proof of survival or even genuine.

There are some good mediums about but many have no base in Spiritualism and most are trying to earn their living from it (and I am not talking about simple survival levels like Etta Wriedt did in the 1930's).As a result we have a massive growth in people, not all of them very capable, trying to feed off mediumship (or really too often psychic) and teaching it. The performing PM's are a part of this group. In choosing what to go to discernment and listening to others experiences is vital.

However, I will keep slogging on because the more I look at the chaos in the world the more relevant I feel our simple philosophy is.

The burning question is are any of the existing, demonstratin,g physical mediums, who all seem closely connected and supported by PM4U, willing to be tested.

Testing with thermography, other infra red photography, night goggles and rest light photography (i.e. not completely blacked out but light at a level the human eye would be tested to pick up). Under carpet electronic pressure plates to confirm movement shown on the cameras and body monitoring using the type of equipment which is attached to elite sportsmen when they are in action (with no discomfort to them or loss of performance). All non intrusive, non invasive and proven safe techniques.

We would immediately remove the need to tie the medium up and gag him. If they leap around and spout rubbish or gargled survival messages, without a materialised person in view, we will all know it. Their guides would be on notice to ensure the highest level of evidence, even down to the telekinetic flying of trumpets, jackets on backwards and levitating chairs to the centre of the room.

All without any real hardship or danger to the medium using new techniques which fulfil tasks in some of the most sensitive and tricky things we need done in our modern world. Doing so without creating any harmful effects to the operators of the items being monitored or those items themselves.

Well I am sure we all know the results, no one will agree to do this. Yet the people who did establish some credibility for physical mediumship underwent magnesium flares, flash photography, primitive infra red photography and even full light. They were strip searched, body cavity searched, clothes removed, sown into bags and locked or hung in cages or nets. While going into trance people stuck large pins in them to prove they were in "deep trance" you name it they subjected themselves to it and enough came through with materialisations to make it a truth.

The modern testing would be unobtrusive and non invasive yet the so called PM's wimp out (or pass that buck to their guides, like the non existant William Charles Cadwell). It really is time for one of them to join a very strict test program and show us that their claims are genuine. Currently they and their devotees love it and nothing may be said against it, people like us question it and wonder. As a result neither side can prove what is really going on, to say definitively it is true or false. Now Spiritualism is a truth, continued survival proved by the tested work of mediums, when this truth cannot be proved it is a belief. A belief is also a religion, the new religion of "Physical Mediumship", which cannot be proved, so must be accepted as a belief, which any of us can choose to take or reject.
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Waller on Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:17 pm

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Lis on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:18 pm

Hi Waller,

The issue is not in this case whether Kai Muegge is a Spiritualist, or whether those who attend his 'sťances are. It is simply a matter of whether a person who claims to be producing genuine physical phenomena is in fact doing so or is cheating.

When a person purports to do something and seeks and obtains money for that, there arises a corresponding responsibility, indeed, a legal duty, to in reality do what they claim they are doing. Otherwise, that person is acting fraudulently and not only deceiving those who pay to attend the event but cheating them out of their money.

When a person purporting to be a medium and claiming to be able to produce physical phenomena and conveying to potential customers that they are genuine, there arises a duty to do what is reasonable and proper to prove their claims. In the field of physical mediumship the usual and standard method is to agree to undergo strict test conditions which ensure that fraud is not taking place.

When a person purporting to be a physical phenomena medium refuses to be placed under strict test conditions a doubt as to their veracity must inevitably arise. The history of fraudulent mediumship in the area of physical phenomena mediumship is sadly all to evident and for those wishing to operate in the area today must, if they are to be treated seriously, be willing to do all that is necessary to overcome the intrinsic bias and scepticism that exists.

As for your remark regarding Braude on another thread also related to the mediumship of Kai Muegge - I suspect that the gentleman in question was relying on very cogent evidence to have been prepared to speak publicly about the matter at a Conference.

In answer to your other question - no, I have not ever sat in a Kai Muegge sťance. Nor do I have any desire to. Until physical mediums who make claims about their ability to produce physical phenomena, and charge people for the opportunity to attend their sťances, are willing to subject themselves to strict scientific testing under conditions that exclude the possibility of fraud, they will remain, in my opinion, subject to doubt.

Lis
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by eternaltruths on Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:17 pm

Waller wrote:
LeroyC wrote:
As for Stephen Braude, then the FIRST thing I would be looking for is survival evidence. I don't think Kai gets much. They are all phenomena based ( if we can call it that now ).

Hi LeroyC, have you sat in seance with Muegge? Has anyone on this forum sat with Muegge?

I sat with Muegge as well as with Thompson.
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Waller on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:13 pm

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Waller on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:42 pm



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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by LeroyC on Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:27 pm

Hi all,

Waller, many thanks for your coments.

My position: Kai claims to present seances in the 'traditions of the German Physical mediums ???. well, there are not that many, so that's intersting in itself!!.

If he claims this, and communication from Hanz Bender I believe, then he is obviously concerned with 'survival evidence' ( By the way, why does he not invite Benders daughter to come and communicate with her dad ??. I don't think he has done this..I wonder why ?).

Have I sat with him, NO, but then again I would not expect much; as he seems not to get much 'evidence', but lots of phenomena..So what is that proving if anything.

Have I sat with David Thompson, yes, on quite a few occasions. Warreen Caylor, yes. Colin Fry ( as a physical medium, yes on quite a few occasions ), Stewart Alexander, yes on many many occasions ( and with Tom Newman ! ), Bill Meadows, yes, Queenie Nixon, yes, on many occasions...( on one occasion sitting with Queenie I had communications from my grandmother, great grandmother, a next door neighbour and a close family friend...THAT is survival evidence ! ) By the way Queenie was investigated and photographed by a well known British University

I could go in, there are more, but I think I know what I am looking at by now....So Kai, where is the SURVIVAL evidence ????


Leroy C

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by obiwan on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:10 pm

It seems to me the current situation is the best advert yet for doing personal research. What I mean is that unless one knows what is possible, it may be difficult to understand how weak the current offerings in the field seem.

A person may claim to be a a physical medium - but can they be compared to DD Home, or Alex Harris, or Minnie Harrison or Leslie Flint or Emily French etc? Having read reports of the mediums I mention, it is clear what can be achieved.


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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Waller on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:16 pm

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by Waller on Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:36 pm

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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

Post by eternaltruths on Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:29 am

LeroyC wrote:Hi all,

Waller, many thanks for your coments.

My position: Kai claims to present seances in the 'traditions of the German Physical mediums ???. well, there are not that many, so that's intersting in itself!!.

If he claims this, and communication from Hanz Bender I believe, then he is obviously concerned with 'survival evidence' ( By the way, why does he not invite Benders daughter to come and communicate with her dad ??. I don't think he has done this..I wonder why ?).

Have I sat with him, NO, but then again I would not expect much; as he seems not to get much 'evidence', but lots of phenomena..So what is that proving if anything.

Have I sat with David Thompson, yes, on quite a few occasions. Warreen Caylor, yes. Colin Fry ( as a physical medium, yes on quite a few occasions ), Stewart Alexander, yes on many many occasions ( and with Tom Newman ! ), Bill Meadows, yes, Queenie Nixon, yes, on many occasions...( on one occasion sitting with Queenie I had communications from my grandmother, great grandmother, a next door neighbour and a close family friend...THAT is survival evidence ! ) By the way Queenie was investigated and photographed by a well known British University

I could go in, there are more, but I think I know what I am looking at by now....So Kai, where is the SURVIVAL evidence ????


Leroy C

Good point. I thought the same concerning Hans Benders Family still here on the earthplane. But be aware you must show your ID Card when you Register for a seance with Muegge as well as with Thompson (who also checked us with metal detectors). So far a family member of Bender would need a fake ID for that. If the mediuem knows who is on the guestlist besure you get results. Or vice versa - I would give my finger for what I claim now "if you send a person to the seance with a fake ID telling the person is Benders daughter even if it is not you may get interesting results in the seance... I say that because I remember some suspect mediums that ran in such traps". But actually any medium that is not really gifted will be very careful in what he or she is doing. I am happy after years some things arise to the public, not to debunk mediumship which for sure is genuine and by far not para-normal but more natural than most we know else, but to sort out people aiming on profit and fame instead of forwarding and sharing a higher message. Sad to say I met more of the wrong side until now.
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Re: A very heavy heart about all this

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