god as open source

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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:03 pm

I enjoy replying to posts and sharing thoughts Obi.
I am sorry if my doing so has, in any way; made you unhappy.
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Re: god as open source

Post by obiwan on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:10 pm

KatyKing wrote:I enjoy replying to posts and sharing thoughts Obi.
I am sorry if my doing so has, in any way; made you unhappy.

It spoils discussion sometimes by breaking the flow. If it matters to you then it also sometimes makes you look like you have some sort of attention-seeking disorder. It wouldn't matter if your comments bore any relation to the subject under discussion but often they don't. This forum isn't just about what you enjoy doing. There is already a thought at the start of this thread, if you want to start a different subject why not start your own thread instead of hijacking other folks?

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Re: god as open source

Post by _Leslie_ on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:38 pm

obiwan wrote:
KatyKing wrote:I enjoy replying to posts and sharing thoughts Obi.
I am sorry if my doing so has, in any way; made you unhappy.

It spoils discussion sometimes by breaking the flow. <SNIP>
Exactly in the manner you have by making your previous comment - perhaps a PM maybe better suited next time? Then not only will you 'not' contradict yourself, but perhaps present a more dignified - polite approach?

Please everyone - resume your seats, normal services are being resumed - I hope Smile
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Re: god as open source

Post by obiwan on Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:46 pm

_Leslie_ wrote:
obiwan wrote:
KatyKing wrote:I enjoy replying to posts and sharing thoughts Obi.
I am sorry if my doing so has, in any way; made you unhappy.

It spoils discussion sometimes by breaking the flow. <SNIP>
Exactly in the manner you have by making your previous comment - perhaps a PM maybe better suited next time? Then not only will you 'not' contradict yourself, but perhaps present a more dignified - polite approach?

Please everyone - resume your seats, normal services are being resumed - I hope Smile

Perhaps you might have taken your own advice. In any event a pm would probably have been better I agree. I don't see a contradiction as my aim was to bring the matter back on track. I see your own posts add nothing to the original discussion either.

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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:42 pm

God as open source got me to..do we need another creation narrative. I reckon that's on topic. Will hold my hands up to lunch at Stephen's kibbutz. That should have been a PM.
Something to be said on all sides but let's agree to say it kindly.
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Re: god as open source

Post by Quiet on Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:16 pm

obiwan wrote:
KatyKing wrote: Very Happy Are you to police the posts Obi?
It's poor work for a free man to be about.
This is about constructive discussion. I am as free to comment on what you're posting as you are to post irrelevant matter. Do you have some kind of compulsion to comment on every thread no matter how irrelevant?

Perhaps that is also poor work for a free man to be about.

People have different communication styles. I enjoy everyone's contributions.

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Re: god as open source

Post by skfarblum on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:14 am

Dear Katy,
When did you visit Kfar Blum?Yes they still serve St Peters Fish.
Speculation just as a process,without any achievable aim has
some use in it ,as it can help bring new perspectives to a problem.
I am looking for patterns,not solutions or answers.
In Julie Gale's book "Soul Trek".There is the idea of a central kernel(Great Spirit )
Alpha her teacher describes it as the white heat within a fire.
Somewhat like a central kernel.
I use an open source operating system.So I noticed
similarities.
All I am trying to do is follow the pattern and see where it leads.
Discussions with others often can be fruitful in tracing it.
No big deal.
Stephen

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Re: god as open source

Post by _Leslie_ on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:19 pm

Whether it be something I’m unable of comprehending, or possibly simply can’t expand upon, each of my musings seem to continuously draw me to possible inherent flaws. ‘If’ I simply embrace the idea of the kernel and it’s open source connectivity – expansion. Then to a certain point I can fine, as it draws parallels with my own thoughts that we are a collective consciousness and that as we progress that ‘collectiveness’ not only embraces the and thus enhances the other. But expand the experiences and knowledge of the collectiveness as a whole. Then of course… I slip into the, ah, but ‘open source’ is fundamentally flawed as it is open to miss-use, bad programming and security breaches.

Then of course, my musings, take me along the path of – as we are all ‘creators’, all carrying the same divine essence of the great eternal life source (the ‘kernal’?) then developing such an idea as open source may be possible. But… (yes there’s always a but Wink ) then I find myself feeling although we are a part of that eternal life force, perhaps we are simple the creation of another, higher collective intelligences production of ‘yes’ Wink an open source life force – developing and expanding as part of the overall ‘system’.

I need to give this more thought (sorry if my reply isn't clear)… great replies by the way – enjoy reading everyone’s thoughts.
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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:46 pm

It must have been around 1984 Stephen. We got to meet Teddy Koleck who was mayor of Jerusalem and his deputy mayor who was an Israeli Arab guy. Took tea with the deputy and his family. A lifetime ago it seems now. Back on track. There's that Jungian weltanshaaung [Sp?]world knowledge cum collective unconscious if one chooses to sip at that fountain...'We are all far older than we know...'says Jung and maybe that coulld resonate with your open source idea. Prime cause.. kernel... chaotic or sentient? We could never know for sure but its the sort of thing that keeps philosophers and MBS popularizers in work. Haveyou come across Stephen Wolfram [of Mathematica math operating system millions]Stephen? Wolfram may have been saying similar things to you. Magnum opus by Stephen was back around late nineties I seem to remember.
I just had a thought..
Are YOU Stephen Wolfram Stephen?
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Re: god as open source

Post by skfarblum on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:12 pm

Interesting post Leslie.I like the idea we are all"creators" carrying the same
divine essence.
I wonder if "higher collective intelligences" could be a group soul?
What do you think of the idea of the kernel being something closely
akin to a chaotic system that operates completely outside
of any type of consciousness ?
In his book "Beyond the Himalayas" Murdo MacDonald-Bayne is instructed by
Tibetan Masters who explain that ,you cannot tell what your consciousness
is.What is known is always relative to oneself.But when all the relative can be understood and known then the Unknown can be experienced,but it cannot be known for the known cannot know the Unknown.
This Unknown could be the essence or kernel of a wholeness,which comprises known and unknown viz kernel and userland.
Thanks
Stephen
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Re: god as open source

Post by skfarblum on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:26 pm

Dear Katy,
Teddy Koleck was and remains an icon figure.A giant.
Nobody like him today.
I have read a little of Jung's collective consciousness,but
to be honest I never could get into his psychology.
I preferred Viktor Frankl.
No I am not Stephen Wolfram.
He sounds interesting and I will look him up.
Thanks.
Stephen
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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:19 pm

Wolfram made a fortune then wrote that one philosophical book it was panned in the academic press and he vanished. Some say to Israel. Teddy Kolek was certainly a big guy. Great bear of a man I remember him as. The Arabs we met thought the world of him.
I'm no expert on Wolfram but did my thesis on aspects of teaching trainee adult-numeracy tutors and used some of Wolfram's modelling tools. Most of that virtual modelling can be done on a home PC these days but back in those days Mathematica was cutting edge stuff.
Wasn't there a village or settlement in mid Israel here they had mediums who were also Kabbalists [not the Madonna version.. proper chaps]. Seem to remember something about people gong there for sittings and guidance. Sephardis I think they were maybe Americans... not been but sure I read about it and spoke to someone local who described what I would have calle 'going for a sitting'. Time dims memory.
I do enjoy reading your thoughts Stephen.
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Re: god as open source

Post by skfarblum on Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:04 pm

Dear Katy,
Thank you for the kind comment. I am happy to say it is mutual.
I did a read at Wikipedia on Wolfram.Mathematics is my weak point.
I sort of gathered that he proposed that simplicity gives rise to complexity
by means of simple basic rules.I am not sure this is right?Is it?
I don't know if you see it,but lurking beneath the so called stable
surface of things is the unexpected,the uncertain.Not only at the
quantum level but all levels of existence, both mental and physical.
Chaos and weird craziness seems just a hair breath away.
When this happens,cause-effect can be thrown out the window.
Can mathematics or logic explain this?
Are there examples of weirdness? Oh yes indeed.
Any reasonably creative,imaginative person is proof of this.
It is called many names e.g Inspiration,initiative,creativity.
Even God.

Stephen


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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:45 pm

I' no mathematician Stephen but certainly in pure math the weirdness just keeps on coming. String theory and P Membrane theorists are so far out there that they choose the language of poetry to aim to describe some of their constructs. Quantum area is up for grabs whilst Cern boffins continue to play with their expensive kit. I'm not of a scientistic mindset personally. Not just avoiding God in the machine but refusing to acknowledge that any machine exists. Own approach is one of optimistic faith along with cherry picking the stories I best like along with one or two to keep our students on their toes. Hence I claim the creationist Spiritualist position. Spirit created everything in seven days around 4004 BC and God , merry prankster that she can be; buried the fossils at different depths just to wind up the likes of Richard Dawkins. That's my story, other narratives are available of course. It's all stories. Tales we tell around the fire for mutual reassurance in hopes the shadows don't encroach too far into the cave.
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Re: god as open source

Post by skfarblum on Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:12 pm

To Katy
Oh,I love this.Another who loves stories.
You have truly made my day.

From the Stephen Narrative
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Re: god as open source

Post by Quiet on Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:10 pm

Smile Thank you all. I am really enjoying this discussion, even if it is a little out of my league.

When I retire I plan to spend the whole time reading!

My main sources of reference at the moment are the trance lectures of various spirit guides. They use metaphor a great deal to explain things for us and although Silver Birch refers to the Great White Spirit he says on occasion in his lectures that it is impossible to describe what that is to our constrained capacity to understand..

I have to find the reference but somewhere SB speaks about a lake of consciousness as the Great White Spirit. I am familiar with the theories of Jung's collective unconsciousness but haven't any associations between this and God/Great White Spirit.

Once, after more evidence of disaster and cruelty (like the events in Syria and the world's avoidance of these) I asked Spirit what the purpose of human life is and received the clear words - 'For the perpetuation of love'. I am still reflecting on that but it kind of ties in with what others, including Jung, said about the need to create positive thoughts, positive energy to counter the darkness in the world. Jung certainly did this.

I guess these thoughts are more about the nature of God/Love than creationism but how the world was created has never really bothered me.

These are simply bystander comments. I hope you continue this discussion. It has brightened my week end Smile

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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:06 pm

Out of your league Q!
I am on the subs bench here slicing up the oranges for half time.
Stephen is a kibbutznik, those guys are major thinkers and never ever play chess for money with one, you'l lose your shirt
Major league debaters too.
All that fresh fruit and sunshine plus generations of pioneering inventors agronomists and all round academics.
It's in their genes to be super clever.
Met a guy once who drove tractors on a kibbutz,came to Oriel and invented the scanning electron microscope just cos he could. Reckoned he did it to pass the time between tutorials. Another one working in Sackler library rediscovered Pindar texts by assembling about a million fragments then translating 'em. I'm sticking to narrative myth, the water's shallow and warmer down this end of the pool.
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Re: god as open source

Post by Quiet on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:19 pm

KatyKing wrote:Out of your league Q!
I am on the subs bench here slicing up the oranges for half time.
Stephen is a kibbutznik, those guys are major thinkers and never ever play chess for money with one, you'l lose your shirt
Major league debaters too.
All that fresh fruit and sunshine plus generations of pioneering inventors agronomists and all round academics.
It's in their genes to be super clever.
Met a guy once who drove tractors on a kibbutz,came to Oriel and invented the scanning electron microscope just cos he could. Reckoned he did it to pass the time between tutorials. Another one working in Sackler library rediscovered Pindar texts by assembling about a million fragments then translating 'em. I'm sticking to narrative myth, the water's shallow and warmer down this end of the pool.

Like your metaphor! I am in the stadium watching. Occasionally I stand and cheer but mostly I watch, sometimes enthralled, and carry off some of the energy to motivate myself. Not troubled with this role at all. It took most of my life to earn tickets to the game.

I love these discussions because they echo or reinforce other pieces of learning picked up along the way. I have not a minute of scientific training (apart from a little geology at school) so mostly know only what I've read. I feel the picture rather than see it, so like to seek validation, whatever that means.

But the huge gift of my exposure to Spiritualism and mediumship is trust, the knowledge that all will be well, even though one needs to work to hold this in consciousness Smile

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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:23 pm

Why curse the darkness when you can light a candle? Your idea of the resonance and influence of love towards effecting positive change is spot on Q. All the philosophy we heard at Lily Dale was based around that and it makes a nice change hearing it here. Many a time we get more history than encouragement in church philosophy talks. I don't know SB that well only read greatest hits compilation through and just dipped into other books really. Should read more SB the provenance is fascinating. All those secular Jews in that tiny flat all smoking cigars and fags chatting and then..... I'd have loved to sit with Barbie and Swaffer et al. If SB wasn't really the rabbi Barbie never had then I'm a Chinese guide.
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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:31 pm

My boss is a geologist by training. He's created an app that tells you via mobile phone exactly what geology is beneath your feet wherever you are in British Isles. Nice thing about working in a postgrad School of Ed is that you get to meet such odd people.
If it wasn't for the students the job would be a walk in the park.
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Re: god as open source

Post by KatyKing on Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:43 pm

Stephen I think Wolfram was saying something about complexity beind reducible to simple systems. That's probably true if like him one has a brain the size of a planet. I did try with his New Science book but it was all too Stephen Hawking for me. Good to see he's up and doing again though. That Alpha answer trawl algorithm of his sounds interesting. Bet Google are keeping a very close eye on developments.
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Re: god as open source

Post by Quiet on Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:37 pm

I think we need everything in Spiritualism.

We need the science, we need the evidential mediumship and we definitely need the philosophy.

None of these are ours alone. Nor are they unique to Spiritualism.

But they all came together rather nicely at a certain point of time for many ..... and I'm really grateful for that. Smile

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Re: god as open source

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:39 am

In the beginning............
Do we really need yet another creation narrative?
Teaching first year undergrads they love nothing better than to sit up half the night endlessly spouting such as this. Same old stuff every year signifying nothing but sounding profound to the less critically analytical ... and then they're too dozy to polish their essays.

Interesting Katy and teh question Is we are we really creating this from God as an Open Source...surely this is more about our relationship with God. Creation I am not worried about be it clever cells, or a big bang which the creator kicked off some time. However that was in the universe our Physical bodies live in the Universe our Spiritual selves move to may look very different.

Spiritualism and evolution walked hand in hand together in the past (as it also walked with psychology) so we could consider that this is the story behind our version of creation. Spiritualism also changed the way we see our relationship with God because we do not need to work through a third party such as Jesus.

Personally to comprehend the universe (or the original creation) is something I neither have the time, mathematics or energy to try but to look at events of teh past and to try and improve my comprehension of our potentiality is a different matter.
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Re: god as open source

Post by Quiet on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:08 am

Admin wrote:
In the beginning............
Do we really need yet another creation narrative?
Teaching first year undergrads they love nothing better than to sit up half the night endlessly spouting such as this. Same old stuff every year signifying nothing but sounding profound to the less critically analytical ... and then they're too dozy to polish their essays.

Interesting Katy and teh question Is we are we really creating this from God as an Open Source...surely this is more about our relationship with God. Creation I am not worried about be it clever cells, or a big bang which the creator kicked off some time. However that was in the universe our Physical bodies live in the Universe our Spiritual selves move to may look very different.

Spiritualism and evolution walked hand in hand together in the past (as it also walked with psychology) so we could consider that this is the story behind our version of creation. Spiritualism also changed the way we see our relationship with God because we do not need to work through a third party such as Jesus.

Personally to comprehend the universe (or the original creation) is something I neither have the time, mathematics or energy to try but to look at events of teh past and to try and improve my comprehension of our potentiality is a different matter.

No doubt KK will reply to you himself, Jim, but I wanted to comment on a couple of things.

Spiritualism is a beautiful philosophy distinguished by evidential mediumship and, in the early days, really strong evidence of life beyond death through physical phenomena. The mediumship and the focus on physical phenomena in circles is the only thing that really makes Spiritualism unique. The first ever lecture in a Spiritualist Church I heard was just about this and even people like Joanne King say it. One of the things I loved about that version of spiritualism is that it gives us permission to believe what sits right with us. I suspect that is what you mean when that Spiritualism walks easily with psychology and theories of evolution.

A practising medium I know believes the stories outlined in the Urantia Book which suggests many Gods and other explanations for creation. The Urantia Book tells the Christ story as well. She works in spiritualist churches because they give her a chance to practise her mediumship.

The question of creation seems too big for me but I have noticed that scientists more than others seem really interested in it. If you look at our universe and physical life and the questions they throw up one can understand why. I am interested in what they say but most of my energy goes into daily life.

It does worry me when people bring their religious (as opposed to spiritual) beliefs into political and daily life and try to dictate what others should believe and do. This is the whole problem with fundamental Christianity in the US at present and with fundamental and patriarchal Islam in parts of Asia. In today's papers there is more grisly evidence of this.

All this sharpens my interest in what science has to say because it can blow away ignorance of the kind that drives the fundamentalists. It may be a vain hope because it hasn't yet done that in the US despite the scientific evidence in favour of evolution rather than creationism. Smile

Hmmmmm ......... I ned to go away and think more about this Smile

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Re: god as open source

Post by Admin on Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:41 am

Good points Quite, one of the reasons I like Spiritualism is that it is so open with no need to take fundamentalist views. Given the position Mediumship shows us that everyone regardless of Race, Sex, Creed and Colour are a part of Spirit and return to teh Spirit World then its hard to hate.

I think that is the message Spirit wanted to get incorporated into all religion. I think we became a religion when the world's religions rejected what we brought to their attention.
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