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Post by mac Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:25 pm

You're way more knowledgeable about Spiritualism's philosophy and guides' teachings, Jim, so may I ask you your thoughts?

I often find myself discussing 'exit points' from life without really being fully persuaded by the notion. Exit points are said to be times planned before incarnation at which one's animating spirit may decide to withdraw and bring to an end one's incarnate life. They are said to be parts of any individual's 'life plan'.

It's an attractive thought but I am left wondering where/when these twin notions of 'life plans' and 'exit points' originated and whether anything similar was ever taught by the guides of old. Might they simply be New Age ideas that came from incarnate sources in recent decades?


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Post by Admin Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:17 am

Attractive I agree but like the "life plan" unproveable. There are many of the ideas shunted out that we are unable to prove. I have become very disenchanted with the "life plan" concept. I may have been involved for 37 going on 38 years now and been convinced about it once but not now (I may also have accepted reincarnation but experience and logic has suggested this is overrated as well, not forced but by choice). If you think on the way life unfolds how could you be expected to fulfil some pre destined plan for your future life; I believe now that this life is just an experience from which we take what we can. Think of it it means that for the plan to work you chose your parents, you chose knowing the birth parent would give you up at birth and the adopted parents would be awful, that there was going to be a Pandemic which would affect your choices, a war, a car crash a plane falling from the sky. Everything that happened in the world would have to fit the life plan for everyone so everything is predetermined; across all the planets and stars of the universe.

I think we have just hit one of humankinds egotistical areas. After all we see humanity as of prime importance across all of Gods creations, the centre of that universe (until well into the middle ages in maps). If you roll it back and say that the universe is, if anything is, the key part of the attention of that Creative Intelligence, the Great Spirit, which created it, then I believe that we, who appeared as an accidental by product of chemical activity which created evolution, probably remain well away from the centre of that beings attention.

Its a point I have been pondering on and indeed my Guide is pushing me to think about. Almost heretically I have come to the conclusion that a part of that evolutionary process has enabled us, through the overall energy of the Spirit which created our universe, imbuing all of it with a Spiritual essence, to continue life beyond death as the individual we were. It leaves lots of other questions hanging around unanswered. Additionally it, like all the other hypothesis is incapable of proof. However, my guide pointed out that even as a spirit, for over a thousand years, they could not comprehend God let alone try to explain.

There is one positive to this, or negative if you want to be told God's plan is peace and harmony, humanity is in charge of what happens here, whatever we do and its consequences, are ours to shape and to benefit from or to suffer the consequences of. We should never blame God for our misfortunes, some are the natural impact of the chaos that is created by natural forces ( I would include pandemics in that) however, far to many of our problems are caused by the actions or inactions of mankind on a personal, national, religious and world wide basis.

It also explains why God just allows these things to happen, why there is no intervention. We have free will to act as we wish, my only question is, if we were to reach the point where we could and were about to destroy the planet would God act against us to protect his creation.

Probably no surprise that those who have lived a physical life and watch from the other side now try to help us be better humans. Maybe in the years of emptiness God did create Angels to monitor the universe, possibly working in some way alongside the Spirits of our ancestors but once again proof is lacking. The only proof I have is in the continued existence of those loved once who have passed over through the evidence I give via my mediumship.

One point my Guide has made is that at some stage mankind needs to revise their view of God just as they have realised the reality of planets, a round earth and evolution. In the nineteenth century the ties of traditional religion would have prevented this but now they have loosened its time to start because the reality may benefit mankind.

I said I am truly turning into a heretical infidel Mac.
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Post by mac Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:17 pm

Admin wrote:Attractive I agree but like the "life plan" unproveable. There are many of the ideas shunted out that we are unable to prove. I have become very disenchanted with the "life plan" concept. I may have been involved for 37 going on 38 years now and been convinced about it once but not now (I may also have accepted reincarnation but experience and logic has suggested this is overrated as well, not forced but by choice). If you think on the way life unfolds how could you be expected to fulfil some pre destined plan for your future life; I believe now that this life is just an experience from which we take what we can. Think of it it means that for the plan to work you chose your parents, you chose knowing the birth parent would give you up at birth and the adopted parents would be awful, that there was going to be a Pandemic which would affect your choices, a war, a car crash a plane falling from the sky. Everything that happened in the world would have to fit the life plan for everyone so everything is predetermined; across all the planets and stars of the universe.

Many interesting points throughout your response here, Jim - thank you.  It seems we think similarly about many issues.  Perhaps the twin notions of life-plans and reincarnation are rather like the curate's egg - good in parts?  You don't appear to have been exposed to these notions via Spiritualism and that's what I'd been wondering about.  I'm loath to trust my memory but couldn't recall the like of Silver Birch, whose influence is often seen in Modern Spiritualism, speaking about such issues.  I can see some logic in our having planned some experiences before we incarnated but I've found it hard to make sense of anything much more specific than that for most of us.  

I think we have just hit one of humankinds egotistical areas. After all we see humanity as of prime importance across all of Gods creations, the centre of that universe (until well into the middle ages in maps). If you roll it back and say that the universe is, if anything is, the key part of the attention of that Creative Intelligence, the Great Spirit, which created it, then I believe that we, who appeared as an accidental by product of chemical activity which created evolution, probably remain well away from the centre of that beings attention.

I have my own ideas about 'source' - a word I've adopted to avoid the baggage of the words 'God' 'spirit' 'Great Spirit' etc. - but it's vague.

Its a point I have been pondering on and indeed my Guide is pushing me to think about. Almost heretically I have come to the conclusion that a part of that evolutionary process has enabled us, through the overall energy of the Spirit which created our universe, imbuing all of it with a Spiritual essence, to continue life beyond death as the individual we were. It leaves lots of other questions hanging around unanswered. Additionally it, like all the other hypothesis is incapable of proof. However, my guide pointed out that even as a spirit, for over a thousand years, they could not comprehend God let alone try to explain.

You're fortunate to have an identifiable relationship with your guide and it's reassuring that after all that earth time he/she isn't able to figure God any better than us.  I'm unable to figure whether my ideas are indeed my own or those from someone guiding me.  I hope it's the latter but if it's the former I'll take comfort that I'm analytical enough to regularly scrutinise my thoughts and ideas!

There is one positive to this, or negative if you want to be told God's plan is peace and harmony, humanity is in charge of what happens here, whatever we do and its consequences, are ours to shape and to benefit from or to suffer the consequences of. We should never blame God for our misfortunes, some are the natural impact of the chaos that is created by natural forces ( I would include pandemics in that) however, far to many of our problems are caused by the actions or inactions of mankind on a personal, national, religious and world wide basis.

It also explains why God just allows these things to happen, why there is no intervention. We have free will to act as we wish, my only question is, if we were to reach the point where we could and were about to destroy the planet would God act against us to protect his creation.
On that last point, Jim, I and others have asked that very question via a particular medium I know, each time without a definitive answer.  For my own guidance I hold in my psyche the concepts 'channeled' by author Julie Gale. (for me a medium more than a channeler although she said she didn't mind which way her words were seen to have come.)  Maybe thinkers all develop personal version of things they can't nail down.....?

Probably no surprise that those who have lived a physical life and watch from the other side now try to help us be better humans. Maybe in the years of emptiness God did create Angels to monitor the universe, possibly working in some way alongside the Spirits of our ancestors but once again proof is lacking. The only proof I have is in the continued existence of those loved once who have passed over through the evidence I give via my mediumship.

Mostly I stick to the fundamentals in your last sentence - survival and evidence of it via mediumship.

One point my Guide has made is that at some stage mankind needs to revise their view of God just as they have realised the reality of planets, a round earth and evolution. In the nineteenth century the ties of traditional religion would have prevented this but now they have loosened its time to start because the reality may benefit mankind.

I said I am truly turning into a heretical infidel Mac.

Then you can brand me similarly, Jim.  I'm a little older than you and of late my view is turning towards the inevitable and maybe fast-approaching end to my present incarnation.  Whether it's my first or one of many I have no idea but I continue to scan this world's situation and the likely outcomes if humankind continues along its present path.  

In my mind I've nailed survival sufficiently well for my personal needs and I continue to look outwards to what will be happening for the generations who will follow.  It's not a rosy picture but I've seen how resourceful humankind can be at times and humankind will need to be more resourceful in the immediate decades to follow than it has ever been before.  

I fear that religion will continue to divide rather than unify and perhaps always will.  If humankind is to accept a version of God different from the ones it's had over the centuries a sea-change will be needed and I'm not confident it can happen for several generations - religious traditions can be persistent.

But all the above is less important than unity of approach to the immediate problems of climate alteration and global population explosion.  God through religion must take a back seat while humankind tries to secure an acceptable future.

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one for Jim Empty Predetermination

Post by Dronfieldman Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:40 pm

If everything was predetermined, one would have no control over what happened in one's life and it would make a nonsense of the Spiritualist principle of 'Personal Responsibility', i.e. one could not be responsible for one's actions.

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one for Jim Empty God's plan

Post by Dronfieldman Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:47 pm

You speak of "God's plan" but is this not suggesting an idea of an anthropomorphic God? People have plans but the general idea in Spiritualism is that God is not a person but a power. I would suggest that it is a power within Mind and everyone's mind and that Findlay's idea that God / Mind evolves, alongside the evolution of the physical Universe, is probably correct. Even Jesus said that the temple of God is within you. As the temple of God is what contains God, this presumably means that Jesus thought that God was within everyone's mind.

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Post by mac Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:53 pm

Dronfield? Just down the road from me.... Smile

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Post by mac Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:57 pm

I don't 'do' God because that word is so unhelpful.

As I wrote earlier in this thread: "I have my own ideas about 'source' - a word I've adopted to avoid the baggage of the words 'God' 'spirit' 'Great Spirit' etc....."


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Post by Admin Tue Oct 11, 2022 12:29 am

I think my mind has progressed to over the years. If ther is a God it is of the Universe maybe just that create the Universe and observe what happens. In the end it is the existence of the universe that convinces me that ther is something out there which is different. I think Dronfield alludes to one of the great variations of the NSAC in teh USA and teh SNU in teh United Kingdom. The SNU adopted teh concept of the Fatherhood of God,one ahich repeast from the first Spirtualist Societies in 1852. The NSAC actually grabbed a different concept out of Andrew  Jackson Davis's Harmonial Society the Infinite Intelligence.

If I accept the ultimate creator is is that of the Universe; then I can dismiss the concept of something which made us in its image. So I remove whole chunks of human theology. Does this creator have any idea we exist on this planet, possibly, as they observed what arose from the chaos of creation, does he really care about us, I have to say its unlikely; albeit I think the creator may not like it if we find a way to destroy the planet as I find highly likely.

However in simple things I believe the energy of the creator pervades all that comes to exist on every planet. To that end we have provided energy for the God's we create but, all to often, this potentially powerful energy for good is overwhelmed by the way theologians create the Gods we should follow and how we should worship them. Thus the earth has phases of evolution and devolution depending upon man's behaviour , we create our own heaven and hell in this place. In the swingometer of aons I believe the latest swing is devolution, Nationalism, hatred, facism and racism seem to have reached a pretty high level again and that affects the earths energy.

I also have to assume that, at some stage, because the energy within us contains an element of Spirit, that we found thet life was an eternal journey and we survive beyond death. I believe, hopefully, but on the basis of my work in mediumship, that at that stage the elementary goodness has more chance to flourish and does seek out to help those living a physical life.

I think that, were the world to remove all views of a Human God, of one planet, it might allow us to re create something which removed one major cause of strife.

As to angels, if they exist and are not visions of Spirit as pure Light, maybe the creator has some form of helper that maintains some sight of what is happening around the universe but then maybe not.


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Post by mac Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:25 pm

At my age - 75 now, Jim - I ain't concerned what God is or isn't and/or how it functions in this universe or any others we don't know about.  Very Happy   Before too long I'll be one step along - maybe one giant step along - a path of finding out a few more details.  IF I can be bothered.....   Wink

I expect that after my next death I'll remember some of what I knew before I came this time round.  If not I'll make it my task to get to know what God might be - if I'm still interested.   Wink

If I do go looking/asking then I expect to learn a whole bunch more but whether I'll be that interested in finding out only time will tell - apart from there being no time as we experience it here!  lol  

From what we've heard coming from those who are living 'over there' we'll all have enough good stuff to get involved with without necessarily wanting/needing to try to fathom God. Mebbe that's why we don't get to hear from modern day mediums/healers who we might expect to reach out to us as confirmation that what Spiritualism teaches us about survival is kosher. Smile

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Post by Admin Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:58 pm

mac wrote:At my age - 75 now, Jim - I ain't concerned what God is or isn't and/or how it functions in this universe or any others we don't know about.  Very Happy   Before too long I'll be one step along - maybe one giant step along - a path of finding out a few more details.  IF I can be bothered.....   Wink

I expect that after my next death I'll remember some of what I knew before I came this time round.  If not I'll make it my task to get to know what God might be - if I'm still interested.   Wink

If I do go looking/asking then I expect to learn a whole bunch more but whether I'll be that interested in finding out only time will tell - apart from there being no time as we experience it here!  lol  

From what we've heard coming from those who are living 'over there' we'll all have enough good stuff to get involved with without necessarily wanting/needing to try to fathom God.  Mebbe that's why we don't get to hear from modern day mediums/healers who we might expect to reach out to us as confirmation that what Spiritualism teaches us about survival is kosher.   Smile

Yup Mac absolutely I wonder why we do note here, mark you we have trance guys around but at best they are just reproducing what went before. Life is to instant for people to dedicatte their time to really devlop trance (let alone that thing which is as rare as hens teeth, materialisation, especially the group who sit with them and do not try to develop just be the battery pack). Mark you the limitations of Trance run deep, No World War 2 ( a common wish of all the great Trance Mediums of the time who's guides happily fortune told that ther would be no war), Silver Birch's rather Jewish views on organ transplant and even blood transfusion.

Its interesting when I stop being leader of a centre will I stop or just become a historian of a dying religion. I will be 75 then and may continue working as a medium until I personally feel that I am no longer able to prove survival, I have agreed with myself that if I work twice in a row without reaching that standard I will stop.
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Post by mac Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:44 am

quote:"....will I stop or just become a historian of a dying religion."  I often feel I am resented for saying the same about my beloved Spiritualism, Jim......

I always wonder if I'm being too negative or whether others have their heads buried in the sand.  I don't much care what kind of mediumship demonstrates to seekers the principle of survival and eternal life, be it mental, deep-trance or physical mediumship.  But beyond mediumship Modern Spiritualism - for me - doesn't have any more of value than most other religions, especially concerning the notion of God.  

It's a blessing Spiritualism isn't predicated on the nonsense many religions are but we're still stuck with the laws of the land that required a certain approach and certain declarations to receive formal, legal approval as a religion.  Now we're stuck with that and with our Seven Principles.

I'm not a medium but if I were I'd be reluctant to link myself to Modern Spiritualism even though Spiritualism means so much to me.

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one for Jim Empty The nature of God

Post by Dronfieldman Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:09 pm

One fairly fundamental difference in the view of what God is, I would have said, is that Spiritualism has got away from idea prevalent in various other religions that God is a person and considers God to be a power. This is a step in the right direction because of the lack of evidence for an anthropomorphic God.

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Post by mac Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:40 pm

You're right but at the same time as getting away from a person-God we've not defined an alternative.

And Modern Spiritualism still has some trappings of mainstream religions, my particular favourite dislike being the so-called divine service which reminds me of all I dislike in so-called Christian religions.  

Having said that none of it bothers me all that much because I'm comfortable in what I know but I still take the opportunity to say what I feel - there's not that many opportunities in reality!   Laughing

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Post by Admin Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:50 pm

Dronfieldman wrote:One fairly fundamental difference in the view of what God is, I would have said, is that Spiritualism has got away from idea prevalent in various other religions that God is a person and considers God to be a power.   This is a step in the right direction because of the lack of evidence for an anthropomorphic God.

To an extent it has especially as the USA chose an Infinite Intelligence. On the other hand the SNU followed the Fatherhood of God; an expression used one way or another since teh start of The Society For The Diffusion oF Spiriual Knowledge and its Christian Spiritualist Newspaper in 1854. It's where Emma Hardinge Britten first appeared on the scene as choir mistress, wher eKate Fox worked as  medium and where Leah Fox (never a medium) worked as a speaker. On the Broadway New York.

However the Greater World Christian Spiritualists and other Christian Spiritualists retained a much closer association with the concepts of a human God and the importance of Christ to our salvation.

Running a Spiritualist Centre, which graduated from being a Christian based one, more from the impact of Arthur Findlay's books on the thinking Ladies who ran the organisation during the 1940/1950's than for any other cause, I am aware of the differences. Especially in Adelaide where the centres could appear to cover all 3 of Andrew Jackson Davis's ( from his talk of the 31st March 1878 for the 30th Anniversary  https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t656-the-three-strands-of-spiritualism-andrew-jackson-davis ) 3 strands of Spiritualism The Rational (by definition his strand ), The Christian Stand and teh Magical Strand.

His principles at the end can be seen to be very influential on the thinking in the USA.

However as Mac says we have not really defined an alternative and many Spiritualist may be happy with a human like figure as God. First step is to stop claiming that God for our planet and humanity alone. I believe it has often been said to us that even the more advanced Spirits that do communicate with us have said God is beyond their comprehension.

I now do not expect to comprehend what God is, or meet God I do realise, however, that teh existence of the universe had to be as a result of something. At a lower level the chaos left from this creation allowed humanity to evolve on this panet and as part of that evolution we wer imbued with some of that creator energy. I also perceive that I salll never be able to prove that God exists so I must just believe.


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Post by Admin Thu Oct 13, 2022 11:53 pm

I am not a great Ghandi fan, accepting the much good he did and tried to do but there wer as with most of us, some inexplicable flaws.

Saying that I heard this piece which was one of the best attempts at explaining God in comprehensible way which I am in accord with.

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one for Jim Empty DEFINITION OF GOD

Post by Dronfieldman Sat Oct 15, 2022 9:48 am

To talk about whether one believes that God exists is meaningless unless one can define God. You wouldn't ask someone whether they believed that a thingumijig existed, unless you could define thingumijig. So the question "Do you believe that God exists?" is similarly unanswerable unless one can define God. I'm aware that different people have different views as to what God is and so should have their own (hypothetical) definitions. As for me, how about "God is a spiritual power that permeates all the Mind and all the minds of the Universe"? As for the evidence of this, I think the least controversial evidence is that so many people do things for other people, e.g. doing voluntary work (as I and many others do), helping neighbours, looking after family members, etc. I would suggest that it is this power in our minds that impels or inspires us to do things to help others. Without such a concept, wouldn't we all be islands mentally, just thinking of ourselves? More controversial evidence would be the need for such a power to enable spirit communication, spiritual healing and the transmission of prayer to those in the higher life.

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Post by mac Sat Oct 15, 2022 11:40 am

Dronfieldman wrote:To talk about whether one believes that God exists is meaningless unless one can define God.   You wouldn't ask someone whether they believed that a thingumijig existed, unless you could define thingumijig.   So the question "Do you believe that God exists?" is similarly unanswerable unless one can define God.   I'm aware that different people have different views as to what God is and so should have their own (hypothetical) definitions.   As for me, how about "God is a spiritual power that permeates all the Mind and all the minds of the Universe"?   As for the evidence of this, I think the least controversial evidence is that so many people do things for other people, e.g. doing voluntary work (as I and many others do), helping neighbours, looking after family members, etc.   I would suggest that it is this power in our minds that impels or inspires us to do things to help others.   Without such a concept, wouldn't we all be islands mentally, just thinking of ourselves?   More controversial evidence would be the need for such a power to enable spirit communication, spiritual healing and the transmission of prayer to those in the higher life.
TIS interesting you've latched on to topics that weren't part of the original conversation.  Care to share your views about those?

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Post by Admin Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:37 am

Dronfieldman wrote:To talk about whether one believes that God exists is meaningless unless one can define God.   You wouldn't ask someone whether they believed that a thingumijig existed, unless you could define thingumijig.   So the question "Do you believe that God exists?" is similarly unanswerable unless one can define God.   I'm aware that different people have different views as to what God is and so should have their own (hypothetical) definitions.   As for me, how about "God is a spiritual power that permeates all the Mind and all the minds of the Universe"?   As for the evidence of this, I think the least controversial evidence is that so many people do things for other people, e.g. doing voluntary work (as I and many others do), helping neighbours, looking after family members, etc.   I would suggest that it is this power in our minds that impels or inspires us to do things to help others.   Without such a concept, wouldn't we all be islands mentally, just thinking of ourselves?   More controversial evidence would be the need for such a power to enable spirit communication, spiritual healing and the transmission of prayer to those in the higher life.

DronfieldMan; I think the difference in our thoughts is more about how we express them, each of us, Mac. You and I have different ways to say what is in fact a common thought. As on the Ghandi You Tube a power that pervades everything; I tend to agree with the each being an Island thought but then I believe many of us have that ability, to be separate from and a part of life, of course, we each exercise our free will, leaving us able to take actions that are Good, indifferent, bad or even evil (on the basis of using the norm of mankinds view of event, so the last category may be left, for example, to people like Hitler or serial killers). These obviously affect each of us, in different ways; hence heaven and hell is a state of life on this earth, not a destination, created either by our own action or by those of others. This needs to be taken both at a personal level, our interactions with those around us and at a world level where the actions have the facility to impact on whole populations. Now if we believe in a loving, all caring God, who governs our destiny, the horrors that seem to be growing around us at this moment in time, or the tumultuous and often horrific events since we  we first evolved, must seem inexplicable.

If, alternatively, you take the view that the energy of Spirt pervades everything but that creative power has no other influence upon us.,then both the horrors and the wonders that mankind can create become explicable and almost natural. We are responsible for all that is good and all that is bad on this planet. Scary, but realistically difficult to argue against if you look and study history; there is little to suggest any attempt by the creative energy to amend mankinds activities or the process of natural disasters. Even the odd great "humanists" like the purported Jesus, but including many other great enlightened teachers, who were trying to bring about change never achieved that which they wished most. They may have spoken of God, but in reality that was the God of their tribe, of humanity and in the final analysis Jesus never said he was the Son of God; Theology added this tag.

If we look at it this way man has the ultimate power to create their own Gods, DNA/Genetics and upbringing can explan many of our caring atributes without any pervading influnce from God (we also realise that they can also explain criminal aberrations). I also believe that the continuation of the "soul or spirt" with its distinct personality and memories can easily be seen as an evolution which is natural if you accept that this Spiritual essence is at the core of everything.

It is a grim thought, at this time in the invasion of Ukraine, to remember nothing supernatural or extra terrestrial will stand in the way of the destruction of mankind and maybe even the planet. If just one man, who is showing signs of instability and delusion, decides to exercise the nuclear option. It may be the first time for over 40 years that people seriously face a risk that I (and Mac) grew up with. At 16 , on my own, I marched to Trafalgar Square with the CND movement in 1965, we never changed anything in the end. My, by then Army Officer Father, had two contigious roles, one training Councils to handle nuclear attacks at the Army School of Civil defence and one as the chief procurement officer of the army missile project, to throw the bombs at the other side. From upbringing I realised that God was on no ones side.

We have gone in full circle The creative power, whatever that is, pervades everything, but that power is, at best, a neutral observer, calm, but inactive in the lives of men. Conversely I believe that the creation of a Spirit World, through the inherent creative energy we are all imbued with, a world which mirrors our physical world, does, as a result of common life experiences, attempt to help and influence us. But at best these are beliefs, unprovable and run the risk of becoming another man made theology.

Jim


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Post by Dronfieldman Sun Oct 16, 2022 9:55 pm

If 'exit points' means predetermination of when one is going to die, I can't accept that idea. When one dies is determined by, for example, the exercise of free will in deciding whether to lead a healthy life, e.g. whether to smoke or not, and by accidents. No-one would deliberately choose to be killed in an accident.

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Post by Admin Sun Oct 16, 2022 11:01 pm

Hi Dronfield man no Spiritualist would ever agree to predetermination unless they were a truly committed Astrologer and I know of few such characters. Interestingly one I know  comfortably mixes the two ideas, he is a great Guy and a good astologer who attended my open group regularly for several years and did my Astrological Chart; we agree to disagree on pre determination.

AS a medium one of the toughest areas of messaging is when suicide is involved, I never use the word, indeed it is my experience in these contacts that the suicide can often have complex factors at play and immediately after the action has been taken, from which death is inevitable the individual regrets what was done. I had a 3 month period where in the few private readings I had and on platform ther were a prepondarance of individuals who had chosen to leave this world in that manner.

By the way I am not sure that the choosing when to leave this life needs to be assessed in terms of healthy living. Neither Spirit or a medium would make a judgement on the choices individuals make. Some of the best medium's I have seen smoke, drink amd have loose morals, however so have some of the frauds been apparently good living (if health is the determiner) people. Additionally I have known many with unhealthy life styles that make it to a goodly span of years. Much of the determining factor is our own mental atitude. Indeed I doubt that any of us actually "chooses" to leave this life.


Dronfireldman wrote:If 'exit points' means predetermination of when one is going to die, I can't accept that idea.

My own poit on this was  If you think on the way life unfolds how could you be expected to fulfil some pre destined plan for your future life; I believe now that this life is just an experience from which we take what we can.

Mac raised the idea because of discussions on another group I believe he expresses his own thoughts disagreeing with exit points as well. I think preditermination dropped out of the discussion a while back but maybe not in an explicit way.
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Post by mac Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:46 am

Dronfieldman wrote:If 'exit points' means predetermination of when one is going to die, I can't accept that idea.
If you look back to my opening posting of this thread you'll see that wasn't at all what I had suggested.  Modern Spiritualism -  the 'raison d'etre' of this website - doesn't appear to mention this idea though, something I wanted to check out with Jim as he's way more knowledgeable than I.  

It's easy to pick up ideas without there necessarily being authoritative guidance about them.  In the past I've tried to avoid rejecting others' ideas because Spiritualism has no monopoly on the truth about spiritual issues.  The trouble with being open-minded however - as I've learned to my cost over the years - is that one's mind can become a receptacle for other folk's junk!   Been there, done that...... Very Happy

I'm 75 now and I concern myself a lot less with knowing about death and what happens next - it won't be that long before I get to find out first-hand!  lol  Wink  Very Happy   But I do meet in cyber space individuals struggling to make sense of bereavement and if I can help reassure them their loved ones haven't disappeared never to be seen again then that'll do for me.  

All the rest is up to each individual to research for her or himself if they are so motivated.

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Post by mac Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:54 am

Admin wrote:Hi Dronfield man no Spiritualist would ever agree to predetermination unless they were a truly committed Astrologer and I know of few such characters. Interestingly one I know  comfortably mixes the two ideas, he is a great Guy and a good astologer who attended my open group regularly for several years and did my Astrological Chart; we agree to disagree on pre determination.
Jim mentions the term 'Spiritualist' (something I am) and from my 'work' with my trans-Atlantic friends I know that there can be huge differences between what THEY mean compared with what Modern Spiritualism means by being Spiritualist.

I find it sad, though, that psychism may be of greater interest, even among some who say they're Spiritualists. But the level of interest is hard to quantify and maybe things ain't as bad as they appear to me. I hope that's the situation.....


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Post by mac Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:38 am

Admin wrote:
Mac raised the idea because of discussions on another group I believe he expresses his own thoughts disagreeing with exit points as well. I think preditermination dropped out of the discussion a while back but maybe not in an explicit way.
I'm administrator now of the discussion website where I joined in 2011 as a regular member.  On that site I learned about this notion of so-called exit points.  

Discussions on the topic were earnest and often detailed but although I was trying to be open-minded about the possibility I have remained unpersuaded.  It's the old, old situation of being unable to prove a claim true while at the same time being unable to prove it isn't.  Reincarnation is similar - can't prove it's true but can't prove it's not!  My guess about both notions is that actuality is somewhere between one extreme and the other.  

I expect for some individuals - perhaps highly spiritually evolved ones - there may indeed be pre-planned 'get-out' points but for the rest of us there probably aren't.  Any reason(s) for an early exit would (I suggest) be highly specific to an an individual and not known to most onlookers.  

In the case over on the other website we had a very specific situation where an apparently early-exit was explained in detail and might well be kosher. But extrapolating one very specific case to become a principle applying to us all is where I am at my most unpersuaded.

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Post by mac Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:55 am

Admin wrote:By the way I am not sure that the choosing when to leave this life needs to be assessed in terms of healthy living. Neither Spirit or a medium would make a judgement on the choices individuals make. Some of the best medium's I have seen smoke, drink amd have loose morals, however so have some of the frauds been apparently good living (if health is the determiner) people. Additionally I have known many with unhealthy life styles that make it to a goodly span of years. Much of the determining factor is our own mental atitude. Indeed I doubt that any of us actually "chooses" to leave this life.

It sounds logical (to me) that our friends unseen in spirit will make the most of whomever is available to convey their help.  That might be via evidential mediumship, healing or whatever.  I can't see why they would reject any spiritually-willing soul; rejecting others because of personal prejudice is what we get from incarnates!

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Post by Admin Tue Oct 18, 2022 1:18 am

3 really good posts Mac I totally agree with teh differeing views about Spiritualism.

As to exit points its an interesting idea I think ther are moments when teh World can go two ways for you. I told my story of how I chose an early exit, its an awkward one because it does suggest that Spirit, who never interfere in our lives, acted in mine, https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t386-arranged-marriages My request for early exit was denied and I ended up as the voluntary leader of a Spiritualist Centre, heavily involved in the movement and on teh other side of the World. All through Free Will !!.

I agree with you like reincarnation the answer may be somewhere in between.

I also agree that they may use anyone they can to help; however, I think that they really want those individuals to reflect their values. Who is to say that a meat eating, smoking and hard drinking person is not a highly moral and ethical one The outer core is an illusion and some of the most highly regarded Spiritual people fall apart on a moral and ethical basis when the spotlight is turned upon them.
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