Should Spiritualists Claim Guides From Other Races/Tribes

Oddly enough my American Indian kin, friends and I do not acknowledge Maurice Barbanell's Silver Birch. Many of us see this Silver Birch as a character created by Barbanell and pushed hard by the 20th century British spiritual movement as well as today's New Age movement. I suggest going to any American Indian online community and see for yourselves that this Silver Birch is not recognized, let alone mentioned in a positive manner by any Indian people. The same holds true for Robert Goodwin's 'White Feather'

Made up characters who are putting money in non-NDN's pockets. We tend to think of such as exploitation.

Jim River wrote:Oddly enough my American Indian kin, friends and I do not acknowledge Maurice Barbanell's Silver Birch. Many of us see this Silver Birch as a character created by Barbanell and pushed hard by the 20th century British spiritual movement as well as today's New Age movement. I suggest going to any American Indian online community and see for yourselves that this Silver Birch is not recognized, let alone mentioned in a positive manner by any Indian people. The same holds true for Robert Goodwin's 'White Feather'

Made up characters who are putting money in non-NDN's pockets. We tend to think of such as exploitation.

Jim, if you go back and read the messages in this Thread, it becomes clear that Silver Birch - the person who was doing the communications, the source of the thoughts and information - clearly was NOT an American Indian. He himselfy clearly stated that he was not: but that he was using someone who WAS, as a kind of relay station or step-up transformer. so that he could communicate from where he was, to earth.

Jim River wrote:Oddly enough my American Indian kin, friends and I do not acknowledge Maurice Barbanell's Silver Birch. Many of us see this Silver Birch as a character created by Barbanell and pushed hard by the 20th century British spiritual movement as well as today's New Age movement. I suggest going to any American Indian online community and see for yourselves that this Silver Birch is not recognized, let alone mentioned in a positive manner by any Indian people. The same holds true for Robert Goodwin's 'White Feather'

Made up characters who are putting money in non-NDN's pockets. We tend to think of such as exploitation.

The sentiments expressed here are very similar to those seen recently on another website relating to continuing (albeit understandable) resentment and anger about exploitation, mistreatment and control of North American tribes-people.

Any perceived exploitation in connection with "Made up characters (who) are putting money in non-NDN's pockets....." should be taken up directly with those seen as responsible.

As for the so-called New Age movement, such issues are best taken up with 'new-agers' in their own forums.... This website deals mainly with those relating to Modern Spiritualism.

Of course traditionally Spiritualism has been connected with having Guides of various nationalities. These I accept and certainly very many (including myself)do not seek to make any money from them so a global condemnation is a little overreaching.

Indeed Jim I think you should take some comfort for the reverence the words of Silver Birch are treated and the fact they are amongst the few widely accepted trance teachings. I also feel Barbanell pushed most of his money back into our movement.

Jim

mac wrote:

Jim River wrote:Oddly enough my American Indian kin, friends and I do not acknowledge Maurice Barbanell's Silver Birch. Many of us see this Silver Birch as a character created by Barbanell and pushed hard by the 20th century British spiritual movement as well as today's New Age movement. I suggest going to any American Indian online community and see for yourselves that this Silver Birch is not recognized, let alone mentioned in a positive manner by any Indian people. The same holds true for Robert Goodwin's 'White Feather'

Made up characters who are putting money in non-NDN's pockets. We tend to think of such as exploitation.

The sentiments expressed here are very similar to those seen recently on another website relating to continuing (albeit understandable) resentment and anger about exploitation, mistreatment and control of North American tribes-people.

Any perceived exploitation in connection with "Made up characters (who) are putting money in non-NDN's pockets....." should be taken up directly with those seen as responsible.

As for the so-called New Age movement, such issues are best taken up with 'new-agers' in their own forums.... This website deals mainly with those relating to Modern Spiritualism.

What's the difference between modern spiritualism and new age spiritualism?

As this is an old thread I took a look back. It seems the new member hasn't bothered reading the earlier discussions about SB , even just the few on this page.

Still, why let such distractions get in your way.

Jim River wrote:

mac wrote:

Jim River wrote:Oddly enough my American Indian kin, friends and I do not acknowledge Maurice Barbanell's Silver Birch. Many of us see this Silver Birch as a character created by Barbanell and pushed hard by the 20th century British spiritual movement as well as today's New Age movement. I suggest going to any American Indian online community and see for yourselves that this Silver Birch is not recognized, let alone mentioned in a positive manner by any Indian people. The same holds true for Robert Goodwin's 'White Feather'

Made up characters who are putting money in non-NDN's pockets. We tend to think of such as exploitation.

The sentiments expressed here are very similar to those seen recently on another website relating to continuing (albeit understandable) resentment and anger about exploitation, mistreatment and control of North American tribes-people.

Any perceived exploitation in connection with "Made up characters (who) are putting money in non-NDN's pockets....." should be taken up directly with those seen as responsible.

As for the so-called New Age movement, such issues are best taken up with 'new-agers' in their own forums.... This website deals mainly with those relating to Modern Spiritualism.

What's the difference between modern spiritualism and new age spiritualism?

Modern Spiritualism is a religion and a philosophy - new age spiritualism isn't....

Never had an American Indian here before, eh?

Did you mean to write NDN?

"Modern Spiritualism is a religion and a philosophy - new age spiritualism isn't.... "

You're welcome!

mac wrote:Did you mean to write NDN?

Oh you are a sly one, 'mac'

Is this where we get into a tiff right before I get banned by people who do not welcome NDNs at their forum?

Modern and New seem the same to me, especially when they both go on about this Silver Birch nonsense and romantic fantasies about NDN people.

sly? It was you who had earlier used the 'NDN' term.

I don't care if you're a North American tribes-person, a North American Indian, an 'NDN' or whatever other way you choose to present yourself. I'd guess that other Spiritualists here - and even members who are not - won't much care either. And I feel totally confident that the website owner would never, ever ban someone from his website for being a something or other UNLESS that member were to constantly, and deliberately, break website rules designed to protect all of its members.

I hope that's reassured you?

So now that's over, what is your response to my simple explanation of the difference between Modern Spiritualism and new age spiritualism? Do you consider that to be valid?

As they say mac, the proof is in the pudding.

It's more of a case of whoever is misrepresenting American Indians.

Jim River wrote:As they say mac, the proof is in the pudding.

It's more of a case of whoever is misrepresenting American Indians.

Actually the saying is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" but no matter.

Still pounding the same war drum at the same time as avoiding the points made by other members, I see Wisa'ka.

Nothing much changes.

Jim River wrote:As they say mac, the proof is in the pudding.

It's more of a case of whoever is misrepresenting American Indians.

I am fairly confident that Silver Birch didn't misrepresent American Indians but I'll be persuaded differently if you have evidence I'm wrong. Anyone else doing it you should take up with the one(s) concerned, don't you think?

We Modern Spiritualists put great store in 'evidence' rather than personal belief incidentally, part of the philosophy underpinning what we are.

mac wrote:

Jim River wrote:As they say mac, the proof is in the pudding.

It's more of a case of whoever is misrepresenting American Indians.

Actually the saying is "The proof of the pudding is in the eating" but no matter.

Still pounding the same war drum at the same time as avoiding the points made by other members, I see Wisa'ka.

Nothing much changes.

mac, true defender of Silver Birch and those who would attempt to blend traditional NDN beliefs with the falsehoods of snake oil salesmen. You're doing quite a job. You must be the pride of your people

Please understand, I don't speak the queen's English or quaint little sayings of her land as do the Yengee. It kind of sours my stomach to even utter a few sentences of it.

Wisa'ka, a Sauk name for who we Shawnee call Nashitheki, but that name was not allowed at a spiritual forum. Sounds more Native than say Rolling Thunder, Thunder Bow, White Warrior, White Feather, White Eagle, Native Spirit or any of those other Yengee NDN wannabee names, don't you think? People who can't even speak our languages, but claim to know more about being American Indian than us. At least we don't die in sweat lodges, or are fooled and bilked out of buckskins by plastic medicine people. Why beat the drums of truth to remind others where their hearts and minds really are? Surely not with ours. So why not count some coup upon those who would stereotype, misrepresent and exploit us. You call it a war drum, but we call it something else.

'We are aware of the predator and know to starve the beast is our destiny'

I'll leave to your destiny - good luck with that.

The strange thing is that what you bring up here is not all that far from what we would agree with Jim. When people try and present North American Shamanic rituals they tend to become offended when I point out that the Shamanic tradition is from Siberia and may have spread to the Inuit Tribes but the true North American Indians do not have Shamans.

In honesty I am as unhappy with many of these goings on as you would be. However none of these things have anything to do with Spiritualism. The only charge you can hold against true Spiritualists is the appearance of North American Indians as Spirit guides. Now if you realise that Spiritualism teaches us that we are all physical beings living a physical life but on return to the Spirit Realms we become as one again. Spiritualism regards all people regardless of race, creed, tribe or sex as equal. It would not therefore be strange to us to receive guidance from spirit beings regardless of any race, creed, tribe or sex they had in this physical world.

I agree we cannot often prove who are guides are although I have one strange experience where one of my guides, from apparently Chinese origin gave me a name years ago which I took to be typically unprovable to have his existence proven last year. I also have a guide who represents himself as a North American Indian who gave me the best approximate English version of his name for me to call him "Soaring Bird of Winter". I have no idea whether he was a real person but his guidance and wisdom is valued by me. However, I would never claim that as a result I was expert in your culture. Scorpio53, who has posted on here as you have seen and, if my memory is right is from one of the Crow Tribes, was helpful in explaining its possible symbology.

Now Spirit Guides are always a source of difficulty for us because very few really are able to prove their existence. Indeed some who have tried, like David Thompson's William Charles Cadwell and Timothy Booth (people from his own culture) did not have the existence they claim creating yet another problem.

As a result Spiritualist have ever to be discerning about the claims of a guides existence. Indeed from our understanding of the Spirit Realms the inhabitants do not retain their physical form, indeed when coming back to give messages to loved one's they have to work to present that form to mediums. In terms of our contacts with the guides we really have little idea if the image they have chosen, even the name, is real or just a symbology which we may feel comfortable with (I have one guide who just turns up as a bright light). The thought is that we will be more comfortable with that which Spirit projects which we may feel has wisdom.

It is interesting then that so many of us have guides who present as people from the North American Indian tribes.

I have not read White Feather but in Silver Birch it is the words that ring out and their is no hokey attempt to pretend any North American Indian culture just words from Spirit. We have not mentioned Estelle Roberts Guide Red Cloud, once again the words from Spirit were valuable in themselves.

Certainly, apart from the guides Spiritualism, except in those places that embrace the New Age too closely, does not seek to include elements of your culture and I would hope that, were it ever to do so it would correctly represent your views.

Indeed although no one who is receiving communications from these guides can be sure who it is that is giving them the greatest have not worked to make large sums of money and the quality of the words do no disservice to the perceptions of your many tribes and cultures.

Weird.

Before Silver Birch and White Feather were the spirits of ancient natives and now they have changed into spirits who use native guise while communicating with British people.

Why not Jim Rivers should not all of our ancestors help all of humanity?

When we cross over to Spirit none of us are different in any way.

So why didn't this entity choose a Zulu or any other Bantu woman to be it's avatar?

Jim River wrote:So why didn't this entity choose a Zulu or any other Bantu woman to be it's avatar?

Very simple. It is very easy to fake someone who is reported to come from a culture that there is no way of verifying. Kinda like saying you are channeling a druid from 2500 B.C. No records whatsoever. No way to fact check.
There is also the appeal factor. No sad seeker who is lost and sick of their average white ancestry and who needs to be different and who has the bucks to spend wants to get advice, no matter how good or practical from a black woman. And we still have a very lively black culture with plenty of "real magic and power" who would be quick to offer friendly corrections to incorrect information. If they ever chose to grace these boards that is. Let me see if I can go find a few

Admin wrote:When we cross over to Spirit none of us are different in any way.

If we keep our personalities and individuality even as we merge with the collective consciousness then there is no way you are correct.

Jim River wrote:So why didn't this entity choose a Zulu or any other Bantu woman to be it's avatar?

Because entities with bones stuck through their noses are distracting not enlightening.

Why isn't your name James Creek?