Sloughed off astral bodies

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Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Jack on Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:43 pm

Sorry I have not been here in a while, but I have a question.

The other day I went to a presentation about anthroposophy. The presenter spoke about the afterlife a little bit. He mentioned that when a person has a bad astral body or simply one that no longer suits it , he or she simply sloughs it off after death. However, the astral body still continues to live on its own. Not only that, it continues to resemble and act like that person in life. After that presentation, another person mentioned to me that he had read that most of the spirits encountered during seances are actually sloughed off astral bodies which, as I said, look and act like that person but are not. This caused me some concern, as I have never heard this before and it would undermine the practice of mediumship if it were true. So I decided to ask if anyone here knows anything about that. If you do, please tell me.

Jack

P.S. I apologize if this is the wrong forum to put this in, but I wasn't sure where to place it. I figured that, since I received this information from anthroposophists, it would best go here.

Jack


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by obiwan on Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:54 pm

I'd be interested to know what evidence they have to support this - did they present any or just lecture on the subject?

obiwan


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Jack on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:53 pm

The guy was giving the lecture was just giving a lecture and that's it. The person I talked to afterwards about seances mentioned that most of the texts he had read suggested that, but I didn't get around to asking him about sources Embarassed . I'll try to find out later, but I just wanted to know if anyone here could respond to that.

Jack

Jack


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Wes on Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:35 pm

That's an interesting concept, and taking into account that Silver Birch had evolved to the point where he could no longer access his own earthly astral body, it may at least be partly correct. I would ask though, that if this was all true and these discarded shells shared the same memories, emotions and thoughts as the old owner, then what difference does it make to the person here on earth receiving a message from them?




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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by obiwan on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:27 pm

I have never read anything that supports that idea from an evidential point of view - it was a genuine question - no need to blush Smile. I haven't read everything of course lol - it sounds like an idea from Theosophy. There are all kinds of ideas out there.

I don't recall Silver Birch mentioning anything that suggested he has a 'previously-owned astral body' that may be lurking somewhere - where did you find it Wes?

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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:19 am

Actually a really good question. It does sound like a spin off of Madam Blavatsky's ideas when the Theosophical Society was formed. It was the big issue which caused teh final bust up between Blavatsky and Emma Hardinge Britten (remember that Emma was a member of the inaugral committee of the Theosophical Society and was highly regarded by teh Rosicrucialns as well)

Blavatsky said that after death the astral body remained and slowly faded to nothing and this was all that mediums connected with. A once regular attendee at my open development circle repeated this idea and had real trouble accepting it was wrong. Personally I feel it was just one of Mdm B's many creations. DD Home was scathing about her, as were the Society of Psychical Research after their investigation.

Remember in this view of Mdm B regarding the astral body it was stated it took 100 reincarnations, at least, to become perfect. allowing for the fact that there is a gap between these lives, in her version, for any theosophist to be perfect now they needed to start the journey somewhere between 6,000 and 8,000BC

Trouble is jut like the 2012 issue, the umpteenth different incarnation of an ascension movement its impossible to kill off these very odd ideas.

Conceptually I quite like anthroposophy and Jack Hunter has wriotten some decent pieces but sadly the concept has been stretched to try and incorporate to many oddities for my liking.
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Jack on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:00 am

First, I would like to thank you for all your responses.


I would ask though, that if this was all true and these discarded shells shared the same memories, emotions and thoughts as the old owner, then what difference does it make to the person here on earth receiving a message from them?

The difference it makes is that it is not actually that person. The person now has a new astral body while still having the old higher self. Of course, then again, maybe this does not matter much for many spiritualists. Still, I think for many people it would be a bit off putting for a person to realize that they are just contacting a discarded astral body and not the "actual person."


That's an interesting concept, and taking into account that Silver Birch had evolved to the point where he could no longer access his own earthly astral body, it may at least be partly correct.
I don't recall Silver Birch mentioning anything that suggested he has a 'previously-owned astral body' that may be lurking somewhere - where did you find it Wes?

I do remember him saying something about the astral body he communicated through being an old one that became available for him to use. I only vaguely remember that and don't remember the specific details though. That does seem a little similar to what the presenter was talking about. It also does sound a little similar to what Wes was talking about.

Anyway, I don't know exactly what evidence they had for the concept, but I will try to find that out.

Jack

Jack


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Wes on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:18 am

obiwan wrote:
I don't recall Silver Birch mentioning anything that suggested he has a 'previously-owned astral body' that may be lurking somewhere - where did you find it Wes?

I'm assuming that he was no longer able to access his own earthly astral body, based on this quote from More Philosophy of Silver Birch, page 13:

It is not possible for people like myself, who left your world many hundreds of years ago and have achieved a certain spiritual status, to reach you and communicate on your level where the vibrations are entirely different. I had to have what on your world would be a transformer, someone through whom the vibrations can be stepped up or slowed down so that I can achieve communication on your level.

What actually happened to his old astral body is another question, maybe it's on ebay Smile
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:30 am

No they have banned the sale of items like that Wes. Of course we all make a lot of assumptions about the Asral Body too and there are many variations even about the reality of what it is. The Spiritists have a different concept. The Perispirit
To borrow from Kardec via wikipedia
Its first use was in a commentary (by Kardec) to the answer given by the spirits to the 93rd question of the Spirits Book:
Is the spirit, properly so called, without a covering, or is it, as some declare, surrounded by a substance of some kind? "The spirit is enveloped in a substance which would appear to you as mere vapor, but which, nevertheless, appears very gross to us, thought it is sufficiently vaporous to allow the spirit to float in the atmosphere, and to transport himself through space at pleasure."
As the germ of a fruit is surrounded by the perisperm so the spirit, properly so called, is surrounded by an envelope which, by analogy, may be designated as the perispirit.

Indeed early Spiritualists went along with this much simpler view. However the entire concept of the Astral Body and travelling was another one of Mdm B's developments. Remember early Spiritualism did not relate to Chakras or Auras which entered the movement via the teachings of the Theosophical Society so once again amended Eastern teachings.

The traditional view of the Triune Man is on this site at
http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t10-the-triune-man-part-1?highlight=triune+man
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Wes on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:43 am

Jack wrote:First, I would like to thank you for all your responses.


I would ask though, that if this was all true and these discarded shells shared the same memories, emotions and thoughts as the old owner, then what difference does it make to the person here on earth receiving a message from them?

The difference it makes is that it is not actually that person. The person now has a new astral body while still having the old higher self. Of course, then again, maybe this does not matter much for many spiritualists. Still, I think for many people it would be a bit off putting for a person to realize that they are just contacting a discarded astral body and not the "actual person."

Jack

I think my point was that if there wasn't a way to tell the difference between the two, and if the message was going to be the same, then ultimately it wouldn't matter to the recipient, as they would be getting the same amount of closure or reassurance in either case.
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Wes on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:47 am

Admin wrote:
The traditional view of the Triune Man is on this site at
http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t10-the-triune-man-part-1?highlight=triune+man

Is the Triune Man concept along the lines of the physical body being an expression of the soul, and the soul is an expression of spirit?


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Admin on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:49 am

Very much so Wes, used to be written about quite a lot. However Astral Bodies, Chakras and Auras are much more glamorous
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by obiwan on Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:08 am

Wes wrote:
obiwan wrote:
I don't recall Silver Birch mentioning anything that suggested he has a 'previously-owned astral body' that may be lurking somewhere - where did you find it Wes?

I'm assuming that he was no longer able to access his own earthly astral body, based on this quote from More Philosophy of Silver Birch, page 13:

It is not possible for people like myself, who left your world many hundreds of years ago and have achieved a certain spiritual status, to reach you and communicate on your level where the vibrations are entirely different. I had to have what on your world would be a transformer, someone through whom the vibrations can be stepped up or slowed down so that I can achieve communication on your level.

What actually happened to his old astral body is another question, maybe it's on ebay Smile

Thanks Wes. This reads to me more like he used a medium of some sort ie someone in a state between his own and Maurice Barbanell's. I can't see any way of interpreting that as him using some kind of 'suit' he fished out of an astral pond Smile - I also checked eBay - you're right, no sign.

As an aside, assuming there is such a thing as an astral body, why would its elements not simply dissipate once it was no longer required?

obiwan


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Wes on Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:30 am

It has got me thinking Obiwan. Is it even possible to seperate an astral body from its owner? Silver Birch does mention astral bodies but offers no explanation of what they are, as far as I know..
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by obiwan on Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:40 am

Wes wrote:It has got me thinking Obiwan. Is it even possible to seperate an astral body from its owner? Silver Birch does mention astral bodies but offers no explanation of what they are, as far as I know..
Hi Wes

Perhaps an astral body has the equivalent function to the physical body, but in an environment where the physical body has been left behind? I can't recall where at the moment, but I remember reading that there are allegedly progressively more refined 'bodies' as one develops.

Have to nip out. Back in a bit.

obiwan


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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by Wes on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:06 pm

That's an interesting idea - having different types of non-physical "bodies". As I understand it, our physical forms are made out of densely packed light particles. So what would more evolved non-physical forms be composed of?

It's bedtime for me, so that thought will have to percolate for a while..
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Re: Sloughed off astral bodies

Post by obiwan on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:30 pm

Hi Wes

Well communicators through Leslie Flint for example definitely seem to think they have a body of some sort. As do many other ostensible communicators. Ultimately I guess all physical objects are made of some kind of 'condensed' energy which could perhaps be though of as vibrating at a particular rate, perhaps everything is some form of energy ultimately with the possible exception of consciousness.

obiwan


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