Why is there a Clash between the Tutors and the AFC Part 2

I believe there is an aspect which is highly significant and we have overlooked a major player in all of these cases. I am referring to the Vice President Marie Lisseman.

It’s been a mystery to me how the NEC and the VP are allowing all these disputes to continue and not resolving the dissent, with not only the tutors, but loyal workers who are now having to engage with employment tribunals. Furthermore, individuals are taking legal action against them too.

It is truly shocking. Every now and then a disgruntled employee will come along and go to a tribunal, but this current level is off the scale.

From a reliable source, we know that the Charity Commissioners have informed the SNU they are under scrutiny. Companies House are also fully aware from numerous people of how they have conducted the union during this current presidency.

The aforementioned VP Marie Lisseman (ML)  and the rest of the NEC are key. Let me explain further: I believe they are all good decent people, so they are either not being given the truth of how serious the situation is for the SNU and the authorities, or they are somehow bullied in to submission by the President. Either way, they will be culpable in the eyes of the public, the members and the law when all this comes out in the open.

Returning to ML. In muggle land, she is a respected magistrate. A position that is only awarded to those of good character and excellent judgement. It is a position where in all walks of life she must be seen to behave impeccably and not bring the law or HERSELF in to disrepute.

She is a great asset to the SNU and also the AFC, as she is a tutor too. Her contributions to the NEC can only be assumed to be of great value and wise counsel (If she is allowed to be heard).

ML is not the subject of the disputes – she appears to be a bystander and along with the NEC this is a huge personal problem for her.

When all the brown smelly stuff, hits that industrial fan, they are all going to get covered. If ML’s name is listed or associated with these disputes, her reputation as a magistrate is in tatters. The same goes for all the NEC who seem to be oblivious that they will all be guilty by association and suffer reputational damage.

The solution in my mind, is the NEC have to take control now or risk public and professional ignominy.

JW is one person who from several credible reports likes screaming at people who don’t agree with her. That’s the worst she can do and we can all wear ear plugs. I had a boss like that once and we all made a pact to laugh at them when it happened. She soon stopped screaming after we did.

If the SNU goes down the proverbial pan, the reputational and personal professional damage would cause them and their families distress. If the SNU faces bankruptcy, being an associated trustee of a mismanaged manipulative president, could potentially be detrimental to their future endeavours.

They’d be unwise to allow one screaming president to let that happen to them. They are worth more than this.

In summary, the key is helping ML realise that all her positions of responsibility within the SNU are a sweetener, so she can be the presidents stooge. She will end up being the fall guy for JW and the reputational damage to her is of great concern. JW doesn’t appear to care about that.

If I ever had to face a magistrate who I discovered was a leading figure of such a badly mismanaged company as the SNU, I’d be right on to the law society myself.

What’s more important is that a good and wise person, does not have her good character assassinated and lose everything they worked so hard for. The same for all members of the NEC applies.

Some great posts there this is an excellent point from notabigjump

From a reliable source, we know that the Charity Commissioners have informed the SNU they are under scrutiny. Companies House are also fully aware from numerous people of how they have conducted the union during this current presidency.

These wheels turn slowly but should those, essentially running the SNU with no overview, continue down the path they are on, then the wheels may be greased to turn more quickly as they get more complaints.

notabigjump wrote:

Anniemillo1 wrote:Hi,

Has anyone noticed the supplement charged for overseas students at the AFC?   I can understand the payment for a translator, but how much does the translator receive?

they get paid per session they work and their travel costs, I was told by a translator. It's not a lot per session, but it's enjoyable work for many of them.

I distinctly remember posing this question to a translator back in the day...some 2016 to 2018. I was informed that it was merely £7 per lesson (lasting over 90 - 120 minutes), though, if memory serves me right, certain sessions weren’t compensated at all. Specifically, the evening sessions where two groups merged were unpaid...private readings were paid though. However, their travel expenses were covered, too.

Also they are regular people, not professionals. That is why one did translate "soul" with "sole" into the other language

Who possesses information regarding the Minister SU case? I understand he was fully exonerated in court—can this be confirmed?

Does anyone else find it quite coincidental how the events and timelines appear to intertwine?JS and SU stepping down and PJ in...they hate their guts! like a soap opera, really.

And who departed first—Minister JS or SU?

High5 wrote:Who possesses information regarding the Minister SU case? I understand he was fully exonerated in court—can this be confirmed?

Does anyone else find it quite coincidental how the events and timelines appear to intertwine?JS and SU stepping down and PJ in...they hate their guts! like a soap opera, really.

And who departed first—Minister JS or SU?

Quite a lot is mixed up High5. SU was never taken to court. JS is still an active SNU member and after many years of service on the NEC, stepped down a while ago.

I'm not so sure there is a correlation between JS, SU and PJ becoming more active at the AFC again.

[quote="High5"][quote="notabigjump"]

Anniemillo1 wrote:Hi,

Also they are regular people, not professionals. That is why one did translate "soul" with "sole" into the other language

There was a German translator who is a professional with the UN.

notabigjump wrote:

High5 wrote:Who possesses information regarding the Minister SU case? I understand he was fully exonerated in court—can this be confirmed?

Does anyone else find it quite coincidental how the events and timelines appear to intertwine?JS and SU stepping down and PJ in...they hate their guts! like a soap opera, really.

And who departed first—Minister JS or SU?

Quite a lot is mixed up High5. SU was never taken to court. JS is still an active SNU member and after many years of service on the NEC, stepped down a while ago.

I'm not so sure there is a correlation between JS, SU and PJ becoming more active at the AFC again.

Yes those issues are around but you have to wonder if their departure strengthened or weakened the NEC? I am sure Bruton was pleased to see them go, and very happy when they managed to act against PJ to remove him from the AFC. However, he got JW onto the NEC, it may seem that the end result could have been his defeat by JW. Nor sure Bruton was a wise man in these steps and started many of the existing problems from his ongoing actions.

Admin wrote:

notabigjump wrote:[

Yes those issues are around but you have to wonder if their departure strengthened or weakened the NEC? I am sure Bruton was pleased to see them go, and very happy when they managed to act against PJ to remove him from the AFC. However, he got JW onto the NEC, it may seem that the end result could have been his defeat by JW. Nor sure Bruton was a wise man in these steps and started many of the existing problems from his ongoing actions.

Always an issue when you bring your friends on board, with no real skillset, but a heap of ambition.

notabigjump wrote: Always an issue when you bring your friends on board, with no real skillset, but a heap of ambition.

We often talk about the pioneers in Spiritualism, the real workers, but from the last 20 years, who could be called a pioneer?
There's just no integrity any more.

Slatewriter wrote:

notabigjump wrote: Always an issue when you bring your friends on board, with no real skillset, but a heap of ambition.

We often talk about the pioneers in Spiritualism, the real workers, but from the last 20 years, who could be called a pioneer?
There's just no integrity any more.

The real pioneers were gone by 1970 Slatewriter sad but true, separate philosophy and phenomena and Spiritualism dies, Duncan Gascoyne tried but he was no great, much underrated but lacking in charisma, although with David Hopkins and others around him, just maybe something could have been achieved. The Higginson years were to flawed.

I feel lucky to have had 10 days with the last of the great US mediums Rev Anne Gehman and her brilliant husband Wayne Noll who visited at new year 2007 fantastic.  

There us nothing of greatness, well possibly, there are some I rate highly but within 10 years they may be gone.

Time for new people to stand up, learn the real history the reality of our philosophy and fight for it.

What we see now are personality traits threatening a vital movement

Admin wrote:The Higginson years were to flawed.

What happened?

Admin wrote:

I feel lucky to have had 10 days with the last of the great US mediums Rev Anne Gehman and her brilliant husband Wayne Noll who visited at new year 2007 fantastic.  

yihaaa, please elaborate

High5 wrote:Who possesses information regarding the Minister SU case? I understand he was fully exonerated in court—can this be confirmed?

Does anyone else find it quite coincidental how the events and timelines appear to intertwine?JS and SU stepping down and PJ in...they hate their guts! like a soap opera, really.

And who departed first—Minister JS or SU?

SU most certainly was not fully exonerated in court. the case I know about never got to court. There might be other cases I do not know about besides the one I know about. SU left first. I look forward to the day when all these NDA's are made null and void, I bet there are some interesting stories lurking in the cupboards at the NEC!!

I heard the police couldn't do anything with regard to SU and it wasn't so much as illegal what he did. But it was immoral. Regardless of its legalities the position of trust in a Ministerial position was a disgrace.

I'm sure the ground would shake if NDA where null and void and probably a lot of surprises with the skeletons that fall out.

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:

High5 wrote:Who possesses information regarding the Minister SU case? I understand he was fully exonerated in court—can this be confirmed?

Does anyone else find it quite coincidental how the events and timelines appear to intertwine?JS and SU stepping down and PJ in...they hate their guts! like a soap opera, really.

And who departed first—Minister JS or SU?

SU most certainly was not fully exonerated in court.  the case I know about never got to court.  There might be other cases I do not know about besides the one I know about. SU left first.  I look forward to the day when all these NDA's are made null and void, I bet there are some interesting stories lurking in the cupboards at the NEC!!  

Slatewriter wrote:

notabigjump wrote: Always an issue when you bring your friends on board, with no real skillset, but a heap of ambition.

We often talk about the pioneers in Spiritualism, the real workers, but from the last 20 years, who could be called a pioneer?
There's just no integrity any more.

I don't think we can regularly churn out pioneers. Those we generally consider so, are people who brought modern mediumship to the mainstream. Now it is here! They did their job.

Personally, whilst I find the history interesting, I have been disappointed too many times by fraud, to call a well known medium of the past a pioneer.

In years to come, it might be the TV mediums who are considered pioneers. Time changes and our perception of what is pioneering does too.

One definition - and the way I understand the word 'pioneer' - is  "....a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area."  

This 40 year Modern Spiritualist does not see any "new country or area" in what Spiritualism is about or doing so why would we expect there to be any "pioneers" in our movement?  

Everything I see in Spiritualism is old-hat, dated and largely unappealing.  If there is ever to be a new generation of pioneers they'll need to be doing something different from what's been done for the past couple of hundred years.

Pioneers also blaze a trail, and they work to give others rights, but Spiritualist pioneers don't have to be mediums. The past few years we've been able to see Spiritualism included at the Cenotaph for Armistice memorial days. That's pioneering.

Not so long ago it was pioneering Spiritualists who lobbied the British government for a change in the law. It took a long time, but eventually mediums were granted the freedom to BE mediums, without fear of arrest and imprisonment with hard labour.

Pioneering Spiritualists did this.

And what calibre of Spiritualist do we have today? An SNU President who causes more grief than healing? NEC members who bitch and compete for attention or gratification?

So I ask again, who are the Spiritualist pioneers that will be known or even written about in 30 years time? No one I can think of.

The top brass are a shower and not worth the toilet paper they use up.

I think the same, Slatewriter. The problem is the definition of pioneer. I see a huddle of aging Spiritualists wanting desperately to be in those history books as pioneers and legends. Those pioneers of the past had a purpose—a greater good, not just their vision, but of Spirit.

All we have now is self-service and the expectation to be worshipped and aspired to. It's quite embarrassing, and those dressing like the pioneers of the past is quite psychologically disturbing and unpromising for the future.

Maybe Spiritualism has served its purpose, and the only thing in the pipeline will be pioneering the destruction of SNU Spiritualism, which will be in the history books for all the wrong reasons.

The science project recently did the rice experiment, I hear. I think it's all just lost. If people's intent were correct, I'm sure there would be more pioneering projects. And maybe there are… SNU isn't Spiritualism; it's just what people here are focused on.

I'm sure there are home circles that are pioneering projects and bringing more substance to the world and their communities than SNU Spiritualism.

But its like the fake news media, people are fed what to believe are pioneers from the very people that are obsessed with and striving for that title.

Slatewriter wrote:Pioneers also blaze a trail, and they work to give others rights, but Spiritualist pioneers don't have to be mediums. The past few years we've been able to see Spiritualism included at the Cenotaph for Armistice memorial days. That's pioneering.

Not so long ago it was pioneering Spiritualists who lobbied the British government for a change in the law. It took a long time, but eventually mediums were granted the freedom to BE mediums, without fear of arrest and imprisonment with hard labour.

Pioneering Spiritualists did this.

And what calibre of Spiritualist do we have today? An SNU President who causes more grief than healing? NEC members who bitch and compete for attention or gratification?

So I ask again, who are the Spiritualist pioneers that will be known or even written about in 30 years time? No one I can think of.

The top brass are a shower and not worth the toilet paper they use up.

I wonder if we had budding pioneers but they have been cut off at the knees and silenced with NDA's. I've been in the company of people who had Spiritualism in their minds and hearts and tried to right the wrongs and move the movement forward, but self serving high up members of the Union have made it their mission to promote themselves and their buddies to even higher levels of power and control within the Union. None of them will ever be pioneers and wouldn't know a budding pioneer if one fell on their head.
I despair at what is happening and if we mere mortals can see what is terribly wrong how can anyone connected with the NEC claim they are ignorant of what is happening, and yes we have heard some of them fear the consequences of speaking out, but what do they fear? Losing the position they hold within the NEC? Is being beholden to a president who seems hellbent on destroying the very Union they profess to love and respect really worth it? Or are those within the NEC complicit with the president?
Well they might like being big fish in a little pond but that pond has a leak and the water is fast running out. I'm not sure I would want my name printed in a book or article about the demise of a once thriving Union and associated with the infamous president who caused it.
Just think in years to come students and interested newcomers will be searching for books to read on Spiritualism and there your name will be. There will be a reckoning one day because that is how Natural Law works, if you believe in the Seven Principles then you cannot not believe in National Law. If individual members and college students can find the courage to question the status quo and speak out then why can't the big fish do the same?

I'm not persuaded that Spiritualism having a presence at the Cenotaph, admirable, appropriate and welcome though it is, is truly pioneering but no matter.

As for the tutors (the subject of the original thread topic) having the potential to be pioneers for Spiritualism, I don't know what might have led to such a belief.  Perhaps someone other than they can clue me up what potentially pioneering activities they may be/have been engaged in?  

These poor individuals - somewhat lost sight of -  are still silenced by the Non Disclosure Agreements they had to sign. It seems they will be silenced forever as NDAs don't appear to expire.  

May I add before I get ridiculed for those points that I don't doubt the motives of any and all well-intentioned individuals wanting to maintain the highest standards that can be aspired to in Spiritualism - but that's not pioneering.

The discussion is much less about Spiritualism than it is about its representative organisation and the bods in it routinely mentioned and frequently disparaged.

Just realised I never replied to these points

High5 wrote:

Admin wrote:The Higginson years were to flawed.

What happened?

Admin wrote:

I feel lucky to have had 10 days with the last of the great US mediums Rev Anne Gehman and her brilliant husband Wayne Noll who visited at new year 2007 fantastic.  

yihaaa, please elaborate

Best look at this thread:  https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t860-gordon-higginson-another-side

Not sure how I can best explain Rev Anne Gehman. By upbringing Amish, youngest ever certified medium in the NSAC at 18,  (she was 73 when they visited South Australia), youngest Reverend, youngest certified teacher of the NSAC, Board member. Established the Falls Creek Church Washington Virginia, Set up a training organisation in NY State that could issue Recognised Diplomas.

Psychic to Ronald Reagan's wife, like Uri Geller made a good income for remote dowsing for Minerals. Speaker, mental medium, trance medium, transfiguration, Tables and Trumpet. Met her husband in her first double hip replacement he was a Jesuit Senior Professor in American Literature at Georgetown University/ A brilliant speaker on Spiritualism. We had a brilliant time with them and sent them off on two trips to escape people plus a Barossa Valley Winery trip with us (I know the way round having in another incarnation been General Manager of production Wolf Blass Wines circa 1991). Had circumstances worked out we would have reciprocated working at their church and staying with them at their Lilly Dale Cottage for the summer camp circa 2008. This is a short version of what happened with us in Adelaide https://www.nasm.org.au/annegehman.pdf

Admin wrote:Just realised I never replied to these points

High5 wrote:

Admin wrote:The Higginson years were to flawed.

What happened?

Admin wrote:

I feel lucky to have had 10 days with the last of the great US mediums Rev Anne Gehman and her brilliant husband Wayne Noll who visited at new year 2007 fantastic.  

yihaaa, please elaborate

Best look at this thread:  https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t860-gordon-higginson-another-side

Not sure how I can best explain Rev Anne Gehman. By upbringing Amish, youngest ever certified medium in the NSAC at 18,  (she was 73 when they visited South Australia), youngest Reverend, youngest certified teacher of the NSAC, Board member. Established the Falls Creek Church Washington Virginia, Set up a training organisation in NY State that could issue Recognised Diplomas.

Psychic to Ronald Reagan's wife, like Uri Geller made a good income for remote dowsing for Minerals. Speaker, mental medium, trance medium, transfiguration, Tables and Trumpet. Met her husband in her first double hip replacement he was a Jesuit Senior Professor in American Literature at Georgetown University/ A brilliant speaker on Spiritualism. We had a brilliant time with them and sent them off on two trips to escape people plus a Barossa Valley Winery trip with us (I know the way round having in another incarnation been General Manager of production Wolf Blass Wines circa 1991). Had circumstances worked out we would have reciprocated working at their church and staying with them at their Lilly Dale Cottage for the summer camp circa 2008. This is a short version of what happened with us in Adelaide https://www.nasm.org.au/annegehman.pdf

I met Anne Gehman at Lily Dale in the summer of 2000. One of my Stansted tutors who had worked at Lily Dale more than once advised me to only have a week there rather than two because he said I would find the mediumship not to the standard I was used to at the AFC and would not want more than a week. He also said I would absolutely love the place and he was absolutely correct on both counts.
I did not hear Anne’s mediumship as her private reading fees were well in excess of my budget and she, during that week, gave no dem. However I did attend some lectures with her which were on a par with lectures at AFC.

The general mediumship I observed at The Stump and in their hall was not evidential but I have reason to believe that standards might have improved somewhat by now. Several Lily Dale mediums visited the AFC in those days and got some great training.

Regarding Gordon Higginson. If he cheated he got away with it because those who knew the man also knew that he was an outstanding Mental Medium and an able Physical Medium. People took the view that if he did resort to cheating he would have done so at times of ill health and not feeling up to it, in order to uphold his own standard and fear that failure would damage all he had built up.
The expectation that his gift placed on him (not least from his mother, Fanny) was beyond realism.
Of course, none of this is an excuse for being a cheat which is absolutely never acceptable, but it is a likely reason for it and people who cover it up are also cheats.

I never met him as my first trip to AFC was shortly after his passing. Personally I find the accusation of remembering loads of names and addresses from a ledger a bit ridiculous so even if he did cheat with that it is not likely to be on the scale described unless he had a photographic memory, which I doubt. The Physical Mediumship is another area altogether and not one I am qualified to comment on.

I have just removed some posts to ensure we remain on track and nor drift into moral's and ethics, which are really entwined into the behaviours reported on this thread, but the particular topic could have taken us elsewhere, especially given the subject matter and individual concerned.

In honesty, given the actions we have seen taken by the SNU, to people who they perceive to be opponents posting relatively innocent things on their social media,then this item is, quite probably. one that the AFC Committee should be looking at. To decide if posting a video, of kissing a child, is appropriate for a course convener, even it it is culturally appropriate, in context and on their personal page. It's about the optics and perceptions it creates. Especially when minor issues have resulted in severe punishments for others in the SNU.

I would also ask that anyone wishing to reply to Janhar about Gordon Higginson does so on the appropriate thread https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t860-gordon-higginson-another-side
I have copied the appropriate part of Janhars reply to that and I am sure his reply could generate some interesting discussion.

Once again there is only some passing relevance because it was during his Presidency that the SNU spent a lot of legal expences on dealing with libel issues. Since then the lawyers seem to have had a good income stream from the SNU , especially, as the AGM accounts show , in the last 3 years.

Anne Gehman should not be on this thread either so I am happy if you choose to delete your post as well as my own post about her.
I have deleted my second post about Gordon that I placed on the "correct" thread this morning following your transfer of it. I have it copied and might post it again another time if anyone wishes to engage in it. At the moment I am weary of it.

Janhar I will leave it there as I was replying to someone and there is a similarity , of sorts, Anne Gehman was removed from the Church she and Wayne had established, after complaints sustained by the NSAC Board. She had allowed some people into her church who had enough influence to supplant her.

In many ways the NSAC went down some paths to self destruction that the SNU seem to be following. Now in less than 50% of the US States and under 90 churches there may be some green shoots of regrowth, however with the geographical distances between centres and all the problems that gives in ensuring decent training for mediums its  a tough thing to do. Just like Aus with a few churches and long distances, plus in Aus no central body we are mainly independent centres. Organising Spiritualists can be like herding cats

The SNU has more churches, members and no huge distances. It is why putting the SNU back together is important for the whole Spiritualist movement. Hence the importance of this thread.

The tutors who have been personally criticised recently on this forum are all dedicated to the continuance of the SNU and upholding high standards of mediumship. They deserve respect for that even if we cannot support their stance about other things.