Should You Lose Awards if you leave the SNU or other Group

by Admin Mon Sep 16, 2024 6:16 am

I promised to open a new topic about this.

At this stage it has arisen from the major topic https://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2485-why-is-there-a-clash-between-the-tutors-and-the-afc

Clearly the status of the 20 Tutors still hangs in the air just two weeks before the AGM.

The gag orders remain in place but there seems to have been no progress in the Arbitration. So what happens now, if for some inexplicable reason, the current President and, the existing NEC, manage to keep on pushing through reforms at the AGM and ignoring the invalid election process. Well it would appear they retain power and the Tutor issue is well and truly in their power to handle as they like.

It has always been my expectation that the President and new Course Convenor never really intended to change direction. It looks a little like my way or the highway, back down and sign the contract or else.

The question is what else. Can they remain in the SNU? and what happens to their certificates, awards and SNU qualifications if they are forced out (or expelled)? Well we know they are gone, I suppose they could unofficially claim them but with the current rules how long before the SNU start pursuing people who use certificates that have been lost., or indeed insisting that Churches only use certificatesd or in training mediums.

Of course the value of the awards depends on their merits, Who decides on the award and how are they examined. We know none are recognised in law as educational certificates/diplomas or degrees.

Except possibly the OSNU and MSNU where the qualification meets legal requirements like marriage registration (in the UK only). I also believe that the TSNU, which is so hard to obtain (normally) has merit. Surely the SNU would love to have tutors travelling round the world showing how worthwhile this qualification is and how great the AFC must be.

I have seen CSNU's I would not like to have on my platform and mediums with no certification I love to see.

Of course none of these are transferable between organisations, the NSAC has its own group of awards, equally lost if they leave the organisation. You cannot be an NSAC member and and SNU one and have joint certification. etc etc.

So what do you really get when an organisation certifies you (sic). Nothing of real value except while you are in that body. There is another way - through diplomas certified by official requirements yet I realise neither the SNU or NSAC will recognise those.

So here we go - a debate on this can happily commence here.

by outsider Mon Sep 16, 2024 7:51 am

I think you can still use the certificates if you remain in the SNU and don’t use them for activities outside the SNU approval. So, if the tutors retain their SNU membership there should not be a problem. If they stop working at the college they will not necessarily leave the SNU. If they were ejected from the SNU that would be another matter. All this is very hypothetical as we do not know the basis of the complaint or the legal ramifications of it. They will speak out when they can.
If they leave the SNU or get ejected I very much doubt if any of them will care tuppence about those certificates. Their own reputations as mediums and teachers have far more value.

by MoMer Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:19 pm

I did consider going down the CSNU route, to be honest though, I too have seen some award holders who I wouldn’t want to see work and, people who haven’t gone down the awards route that are great mediums. With that in mind, I wondered how much value the awards actually have. If you want to be a tutor at the AFC then the qualifications are necessary but, other than that, to my mind hold very little worth.

Add to that the fact that you always have to be a member of the SNU, or they are “removed”, or they can be taken away if they think you have done something wrong (which is fair enough if you are genuinely bringing the union into disrepute, by working in a way that is potentially dangerous or downright harmful and insulting to the Spirit world) but, I’ve heard that they get to decide why they get removed. With the current lot in “power” that might not be very much, potentially you only need to disagree with them.

I once thought that the awards were something to aim for, now I’m not sure they’re worth the paper they are written on, so I will keep my money and let my work speak for me, that way, if I get bookings it’s down to me and if I don’t, that’s also down to me.

I very much doubt that they will go down the route of only award holders, or those in training will be allowed to serve the churches. For one, at least for the time being, the churches have autonomy, for two, there are far too many services that need covering and not enough award holder to cover them. A lot of mediums potentially can’t afford to go down the certification route, or simply don’t want to, so if they try that I think we will see a lot of new independent centres opening up, and/or those churches that are able to, leaving the SNU and becoming independent.

I won’t go down the route of being certified by an outside body, simply because, the reason I considered going for CSNU and above, was because I was a proud SNU Spiritualist, so it was their qualifications that meant something to me,, not anymore. I’m now thankful that I didn’t waste my money, or put myself through the process because after the AGM I will be cancelling my membership (unless something drastic happens between now and then), which would render any awards invalid as well as worthless.

As for the tutors, I don’t know how they would feel, IF their awards are removed if things aren’t resolved, given the amount of dedication and time and commitment they have put into earning those awards, not to mention the service they have given while having them, and, the money it cost them to get there, they’d have every right to be “upset” at the very least, they’d also be entitled to not want to use them, or to associate themselves with the SNU anymore, why should they let their hard work, love and service to and for Spirit enhance the reputation of the SNU and the AFC?

When you consider that a lot of students go to the college for the tutors, with the building being a bonus and not the reason,, alienating twenty of the most popular hasn’t been their smartest move. I would be interested to know (out of curiosity) how many have cancelled courses for next year, now that the course tutors have been replaced. I have cancelled my place on the course that I was booked onto and will not be looking at any of the others as I would usually do.

by outsider Sat Sep 21, 2024 12:45 pm

Yes, it will be interesting. It will only be people who want those tutors only that will withdraw. We will have to wait snd see.

by Admin Sun Sep 22, 2024 12:51 am

Good points MoMer, which I agree with, It is important to realise that the AFC will never make you a medium or Psychic, unless you have enough money to attend monthly. Even then it would not replicate platform experience. I only became involved in Spiritualism through meeting my wife in 1983.

At that time to be a medium you attended circles, frequently with very good teachers, different for each stage of the journey. In Victoria, when she started Lis was in a circle run by the then President of the Victorian Spiritualist Union (Aus of course) George Eldred. Moving to the UK she went into various circles to continue development, visited the AFC twice, I believe for courses to polish up part. However key was the group, only for people already on Platform, around Ilford Essex, where the leader was a very experienced teacher and a martinet. Lis became a very good mental and trance medium and teacher.

We need really good circles around the churches rather than even the AFC. However if awards and accreditations are given they should be at the highest level and eliminate personalities and the threat of removal.

by mac Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:38 am

This thread was started to discuss whether awards/certificates/accreditation would be lost if the holder were to leave the SNU. Earlier in the other thread I asked a simple question - exactly how could an award or a certificate be lost by, or removed from, an individual?

It could if it's a virtual one, held only in an SNU database and never existing as an actual printed certificate of achievement. The entry could be deleted and be gone for good. Is that the situation?

If that's the case I get how its removal from such a database would effectively discourage an individual leaving the SNU. If not, if the individual has a printed record of her/his personal achievement, then surely that individual CAN NOT lose the actual award?

If the award does not expire why would current SNU membership be needed - would it not be like any other body's award? It might have little relevance or meaning outside of the SNU but it is still a valid award.

Maybe you award/certificate holders could explain?

by RosieJM1 Fri Sep 27, 2024 9:21 pm

I was a member of the SNU for a few years. I started doing the PASS accreditation. It was extremely badly run at that time, from finishing the workshops and going for the PASS I think there was a three year gap. I went all the way to Stafford for the PASS. I came across an extremely difficult egotistical man there who was apparently in charge. Yes I passed but after that day I decided to stop being a member of the SNU and didn't bother to go for CSNU. My decision was based on the fact that they are supposed to be a Spiritual Organisation and when you get people in charge behaving in such a difficult egotistical way that yo me isn't very Spiritual. I haven't regretted my decision. I am hoping that the present situation at the SNU AFC will culmanate in a complete change of personnel at the top. If that happens and it's then left by Spiritual People I will be very happy to rejoin.

by mac Sat Sep 28, 2024 6:16 am

I'm still hoping someone out there will answer my simple questions two postings above???

by outsider Sat Sep 28, 2024 8:13 am

mac wrote:I'm still hoping someone out there will answer my simple questions two postings above???

In Aug 1999 as an SNU member, I was upgraded by the SNU Healing Committee and sent an SNU Healing Committee registration card saying I was registered as a Spiritualist Healer with a reference number and an expiry date of 1st Jan 2005. I was invited to purchase a certificate to frame for £1.50 if I wanted one. Cannot tell you if all SNU certificates need to be renewed but mine did, though I was never told if I would need evidence of continued practice to do so. I had left the SNU by 2005.

by mac Sat Sep 28, 2024 10:37 am

Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:I'm still hoping someone out there will answer my simple questions two postings above???
In Aug 1999 as an SNU member, I was upgraded by the SNU Healing Committee and sent an SNU Healing Committee registration card saying I was registered as a Spiritualist Healer with a reference number and an expiry date of 1st Jan 2005. I was invited to purchase a certificate to frame for £1.50 if I wanted one. Cannot tell you if all SNU certificates need to be renewed but mine did, though I was never told if I would need evidence of continued practice to do so. I had left the SNU by 2005.

Is the SNU Healing Committee registration card the same as the certificates/awards I had been asking about?

by outsider Sat Sep 28, 2024 11:42 am

mac wrote:
Janhar wrote:
mac wrote:I'm still hoping someone out there will answer my simple questions two postings above???
In Aug 1999 as an SNU member, I was upgraded by the SNU Healing Committee and sent an SNU Healing Committee registration card saying I was registered as a Spiritualist Healer with a reference number and an expiry date of 1st Jan 2005. I was invited to purchase a certificate to frame for £1.50 if I wanted one. Cannot tell you if all SNU certificates need to be renewed but mine did, though I was never told if I would need evidence of continued practice to do so. I had left the SNU by 2005.
Is the SNU Healing Committee registration card the same as the certificates/awards I had been asking about?

No it wasn't a csnu or anything a tutor would have to get. My healer training practical assessments were done in the local church under their supervision They had to sign a log for me weekly after each week's healing session. I had to get about 100 logs I think and it took 2 years. I had to submit several essays on healing topics and snu healing regulations. Had to hand write them ( no computer in the nineties) and post them to an SNU teacher who marked them and posted them back to me with my mark and sometimes a bit of supplementary info if she thought I had missed a bit out that could have gone in. Not too arduous.

by OnlyVisitingEarth Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:16 am

I was thinking about the issue of either giving back awards or having them taken off you by the SNU. What happens to your insurance? Because surely if you got the insurance through having that particular award or certificate then that insurance is null and void once you lose the awards? Can someone tell me or should I contact my insurance company?

by outsider Sun Sep 29, 2024 9:36 am

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:I was thinking about the issue of either giving back awards or having them taken off you by the SNU. What happens to your insurance? Because surely if you got the insurance through having that particular award or certificate then that insurance is null and void once you lose the awards? Can someone tell me or should I contact my insurance company?

Does the writing on your certificate, although anSNU one, actually refer to you as being an SNU member or infer in any way that it is only valid with SNU membership?. Also, does it have an expiry/renewal date. I think you should definitely check with your insurance and stay in the SNU if you are in any doubt, or if the insurers seem to be in any doubt. The reason I ask those questions is because it might make a difference to the insurer and also, even if not useful for insurance after leaving SNU, it might still be feasible for you to use the certificate as a credential, even if no longer recognised by SNU.

by mac Mon Sep 30, 2024 4:31 pm

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:I was thinking about the issue of either giving back awards or having them taken off you by the SNU. What happens to your insurance? Because surely if you got the insurance through having that particular award or certificate then that insurance is null and void once you lose the awards? Can someone tell me or should I contact my insurance company?

We're no further forward and still mentioning "giving back" or "having them taken away".....

Giving exactly WHAT back? Having exactly WHAT taken away?

If you were insured by the SNU to give whatever service you give/gave then the SNU would have to notify the insurer that the Union was no longer prepared to pay for your insurance and either the SNU or the insurer would (in law I believe) have to tell you your insurance cover was null and void from a specific date.

If, however, you insure yourself and include information in your declaration but then circumstances change - or even if you think they might have changed - then it is YOUR responsibility to advise the insurer. That's the deal with insurance companies - you tell them if things change and if you don't they might decline a claim made against a policy.

by High5 Fri Dec 27, 2024 1:26 pm

[quote="mac"]

OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:Giving exactly WHAT back? Having exactly WHAT taken away? [/color]

To my understanding it regards your credentials and awards (awarded by the SNU)...like csnu-awards for healing, mediumship etc.
A female tutor made some "loud noise" at the AGM years back, were considering leaving the SNU altogether as she was very unhappy...but didn't do eventually as she sadly claimed: her CSNU for teaching would be gone with her membership.

Not sure, if that is true...but thats why she's still in the SNU to this day.

by mac Fri Dec 27, 2024 2:30 pm

High5 wrote:
mac wrote:
OnlyVisitingEarth wrote:Giving exactly WHAT back? Having exactly WHAT taken away? [/color]

To my understanding it regards your credentials and awards (awarded by the SNU)...like csnu-awards for healing, mediumship etc.
A female tutor made some "loud noise" at the AGM years back, were considering leaving the SNU altogether as she was very unhappy...but didn't do eventually as she sadly claimed: her CSNU for teaching would be gone with her membership.

Not sure, if that is true...but thats why she's still in the SNU to this day.

Goodness it's a long time since I asked those questions......

I'm guessing what would be lost is continuing SNU recognition of an earlier award if a member were to discontinue her/his SNU membership. The actual award presumably wouldn't be revoked just because the member let her/his Union membership lapse BUT there might be no recognition of it if the member applied again to be a Union member. That former member would in effect be seen as a new member, one no longer holding an award.

Hence a former award-holding teacher who left the Union would not be able to return to a Union teaching role without again doing what was necessary to achieve her/his former level of competency. Am I right?

On the face of it that sounds unfair and maybe it is if it were only a short period out of the Union. But it might seem reasonable if the break in membership were significantly long.

by High5 Mon Dec 30, 2024 8:16 am

mac wrote:
Hence a former award-holding teacher who left the Union would not be able to return to a Union teaching role without again doing what was necessary to achieve her/his former level of competency. Am I right?

I'm not entirely sure about that. Do you recall the case of the fraudulent tutor who deceitfully claimed benefits, only to be discovered lifting heavy weights in a fitness club? If I understand correctly, he repaid hundreds of thousands, was banned from the SNU for a time, but has, in recent years, been welcomed back into the fold with all his former credentials restored. I cannot, for the life of me, recall his name.

by mac Mon Dec 30, 2024 12:07 pm

High5 wrote:
mac wrote:
Hence a former award-holding teacher who left the Union would not be able to return to a Union teaching role without again doing what was necessary to achieve her/his former level of competency. Am I right?

I'm not entirely sure about that. Do you recall the case of the fraudulent tutor who deceitfully claimed benefits, only to be discovered lifting heavy weights in a fitness club? If I understand correctly, he repaid hundreds of thousands, was banned from the SNU for a time, but has, in recent years, been welcomed back into the fold with all his former credentials restored. I cannot, for the life of me, recall his name.

I THINK I vaguely recall some of what you've outlined. If those details are facts then it seems awards, certificates, accreditations etc. do not automatically expire and stop being recognised by the SNU/AFC system. It comes down to how the system works I guess but as I see things and award does not get lost - ie it's not taken off you - but there may not be a formal system for its reinstatement if a member leaves but later returns.

I don't understand why at least one of the contributors here, seemingly-knowledgeable about the SNU and how it operates, does not appear to understand the actual position. Clearly from earlier postings in this thread some members are fearful about their personal status and might be influenced in what they do next by facts rather than conjecture.....

by Alice Mon Dec 30, 2024 7:28 pm

I know the tutor to whom you refer. His awards, like they have been for others, were taken away from him. After time spent, he had to go through the "exam" process again, and sit a final assessment board. Once passed, he was entitled to once more utilise his award.
None of the awards belong to the individual. It is made very clear, when embarking upon the SNU training programmes, that you need to remain an Individual Member of the Union, and that these awards can be taken away should the Union see fit.

by High5 Thu Jan 02, 2025 2:45 pm

Alice,
many thanks for clarifying... Should You Lose Awards if you leave the SNU or other Group 1f44d

by mac Sun Jan 05, 2025 5:14 am

Alice wrote:I know the tutor to whom you refer. His awards, like they have been for others, were taken away from him. After time spent, he had to go through the "exam" process again, and sit a final assessment board. Once passed, he was entitled to once more utilise his award.
None of the awards belong to the individual. It is made very clear, when embarking upon the SNU training programmes, that you need to remain an Individual Member of the Union, and that these awards can be taken away should the Union see fit.

That's a good explanation of the system of awards. I wonder if any other awarding bodies in any other field "take back" an earned award?

by Admin Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:15 am

mac wrote:
Alice wrote:I know the tutor to whom you refer. His awards, like they have been for others, were taken away from him. After time spent, he had to go through the "exam" process again, and sit a final assessment board. Once passed, he was entitled to once more utilise his award.
None of the awards belong to the individual. It is made very clear, when embarking upon the SNU training programmes, that you need to remain an Individual Member of the Union, and that these awards can be taken away should the Union see fit.
That's a good explanation of the system of awards. I wonder if any other awarding bodies in any other field "take back" an earned award?

It was a really good explanation Mac. I should have remembered the issues involved. You cannot be a member of the SNU and have a membership or award of another Spiritualist body.Unless that is described as a Kindred Body.

When "Rev Ray Jones", who wrote for Psychic World, moved to get his Rev from the NSAC he had to give up SNU membership & his awards. However he became paid pastor of Way Memorial Church Wheeling WV with a magnificent house to live in (but no medical insurance, as Lis and I know we had the same offer later) after passing the Maurice Pratt 8 week Rev program.

Now the NSAC will not let non US residents be members so I suspect there awards run similar to the SNU

by Admin Tue Jan 07, 2025 2:34 am

Of course Martin Colclough set about creating a training body which would be acceptable to issue Government Approved qualifications and succeeded https://www.facebook.com/tsfellowshiptraining/

This was a major advance, a step in the right direction to ensure awards were properly policed, good training and awards that remained with the individual. Naturally, if this body had been accepted by the SNU it would have been a land mark in better accreditation. Remember this involved both academic training of what is a medium what it does but also practical work to show you could walk the walk that the talk helped trained you for.

It was then Spiritualist based but there was one big hurdle would the SNU approve it as a deemed compatible religious body from whom SNU members could obtain awards

We know the answer they did not deeming it an incompatible religious body, banning all members and award holders, from holding or taking these qualifications on fear of an SNU ban on them. The difficulty is that one someone has achieved an award it is not under Ofqual, the recognised awarding body, an able to be handed back or cancelled.

Martin moved on to create a new organisation, away from the Spiritualist Main Stream, Creating The Psyche Education and Research Centre, The Psyche Centre Website

It does seem that there may be some opportunity now, with 21 Tutors, potentially no longer associated with the SNU, to revisit the TS Fellowship and create an alternate, fully accredited route to awards that are better policed to avoid issues of personality clashes and potential cronyism.

Maybe after that we could follow a path like the CPA of continues professional development to ensure those practicing are still competent

by mac Fri Jan 10, 2025 3:55 pm

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Quite a bold claim....

by Admin Sun Jan 19, 2025 12:40 am

mac wrote:" Discover Your Potential with the Level 2 Spiritual Healing Accreditation!
Enhance your healing journey with a prestigious qualification, fully accredited by a respected governing body. This award is yours to keep forever—no one can take it away!
Tailored for experienced healers, this program allows you to study at your own pace with comprehensive video tutorials guiding you through the assessment process .
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Quite a bold claim....

If you contacted Martin you would find this is not how he originally envisaged the idea, until the SNU black balled his first organisation.

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