real or not?

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Re: real or not?

Post by obiwan on Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:41 am

Perhaps suffering is purely a cause-v-effect thing?

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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:21 am

petal34 wrote:
Unless there is another purpose we are sent here for,and that I cannot understand.
Ok,we suffer ( I know how you feel,Jim),but why do we suffer?
There has to be an explanation for that.
Give me another reason and i will listen.
ten
Here's a reason to ponder: reincarnation is a retrogressive philosophy.

Spiritualism and near death experiencers tell us that the world beyond is a much enlightened one, compared to this one. If that's the case: why would we learn better /more by coming back to a less enlightened world?

Buddhists believe in reincarnation because they believe that spiritual progress can ONLY be made in the physical world. They believe that when we die, we go to a kind of heaven, or to a kind of hell, but that these places are but temporary: lasting only so long as our sins are atoned for, or our good deeds used up.

They DON'T believe that spiritual progress can be made while within the next world.

Whereas a belief that it can be made and does get made is on of the basic principles of Modern Spiritualism.

Jim

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Re: real or not?

Post by petal34 on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:18 pm

Left Behind wrote:
petal34 wrote:
Unless there is another purpose we are sent here for,and that I cannot understand.
Ok,we suffer ( I know how you feel,Jim),but why do we suffer?
There has to be an explanation for that.
Give me another reason and i will listen.
ten
Here's a reason to ponder: reincarnation is a retrogressive philosophy.

Spiritualism and near death experiencers tell us that the world beyond is a much enlightened one, compared to this one. If that's the case: why would we learn better /more by coming back to a less enlightened world?

Buddhists believe in reincarnation because they believe that spiritual progress can ONLY be made in the physical world. They believe that when we die, we go to a kind of heaven, or to a kind of hell, but that these places are but temporary: lasting only so long as our sins are atoned for, or our good deeds used up.

They DON'T believe that spiritual progress can be made while within the next world.

Whereas a belief that it can be made and does get made is on of the basic principles of Modern Spiritualism.

Jim

Just noticed.....'why would we come back to a less enlightened world?'

Indeed,why?
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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:40 pm

That's one of the reasons why I don't believe in reincarnation, Petal.

And, there are others. Very Happy


jim

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Re: real or not?

Post by petal34 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:34 am

Left Behind wrote:That's one of the reasons why I don't believe in reincarnation, Petal.

And, there are others. Very Happy


jim

Can't resist,others what?
Curiosity killed the cat.... Surprised
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Re: real or not?

Post by KatyKing on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:26 pm

It was a tractor did for ours. Poor old Mr. Friisky McPuss.
That said his replacement Miss Emilie Catte [ born in the week of his squashing] is spookily similar to him in so many ways. She knew her way round the house and plot from day one. Even purrs the same. Maybe cats reincarnate nine times.
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Re: real or not?

Post by KatyKing on Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:36 pm

Famous too. Her photo's been in PN.
In ancient Egypt cats were worshipped as gods.
Cats have never forgotten this !
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Re: real or not?

Post by petal34 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:13 pm

Dogs too! Think our Yorkie reincarnated within 12 hours,saw her tail disappearing round the door as she took off for her bed.

As hubby used to say......'I'm coming back as your next dog,free food,comfortable lodgings and loads of hugs!'.

woohoo
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Re: real or not?

Post by hiorta on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:09 pm

""'why would we come back to a less enlightened world?' ""

Perhaps the notion of 'being enlightened' reveals the limits. I'd opine that we are exactly where we need to be at any given time.
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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:19 pm

KatyKing wrote:Maybe cats reincarnate nine times.

Now THAT i can believe! Very Happy

Jim

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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:33 pm

petal34 wrote:
Left Behind wrote:That's one of the reasons why I don't believe in reincarnation, Petal.

And, there are others. Very Happy


jim

Can't resist,others what?
Curiosity killed the cat.... Surprised

1) Why do most people not remember their alleged prior lives?

2) Insofar as we don't seem to: how to we benefit from the lessons we allegedly learned in prior lives?

3) Demographers believe there are more people alive right now than there are people who have lived and died in the past. What were we in a past life, when past lives are outnumbered by present lives?

4) if "we" have been a succession of men, women, cows, cats, blades of grass, kings, beggars, microbes, criminals, slaves, oak trees, etc. , what really are "we"? How can we square reincarnation with the concept that "we" "survive" when it's unclear who or what "we" are?

5) Christianity teaches that we live once, and then stay in the next world.

6) Spiritualism teaches that we live an incarnate life, then die, but can continue to progress in the next world. If so, what would be the point of coming back to this world? It's a retrogressive concept.

7) Reincarnation fits into Eastern religious concepts, which teach that spiritual progress can be made only in an incarnate existence. Neither Christianity nor Spiritualism teach this: therefore the need for reincarnation disappears, if you hold to either a traditional Christian or a Spiritualist world view.

8 ) How are mediums still able to reach people who passed into spirit a century or more ago? And they are often told, regarding discarnate spirits they CAN'T reach, that these spirits have passed onto higher planes in the spirit world: NOT that they've returned to incarnate life with a new identity.

Left Behind


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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:45 pm

9) Why did Modern Spiritualism exist for a century before reincarnation concepts started creeping in? Why did Christianity exist for 19 centuries before it did? Isn't it curious than it's only as the Western world is borrowing idea from the Eastern that these ideas are starting to take hold? How did coherent worldview systems begin, and last so long, without these "truths", which do not clarify, but rather contradict, traditional Christian and Spiritualist thinking?

10) The "all chiefs and no Indians" syndrome: it always seemed to me that an inordinate number of people "remember" having been a pharoah, Napoleon, Queen Elizabeth I, etc. How many of them can there be?! Yet the vast majority of people who have lived and died have been peasants, chimney sweeps, slaves, dead before their 5th birthday, etc. Rolling Eyes

11) My own personal gut reaction goes against it!


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Re: real or not?

Post by petal34 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:56 pm

Jim,I cannot answer your questions because I do not know the answers.
Reincarnation will never be proved because if we knew what to expect in our next life,would we want to live it?
Would you want to return to a future life,knowing you had to make amends for whatever you had done in a previous life?
I think not!!!
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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:05 pm

But then, Petal, if reincarnation IS true: would we have a choice in the matter?

Left Behind


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Re: real or not?

Post by zerdini on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:54 pm

Left Behind wrote:But then, Petal, if reincarnation IS true: would we have a choice in the matter?

Very good questions, Jim,but Joan cannot answer them because reincarnation is simply a belief with her with no evidence to back it up. Rolling Eyes

I very much doubt that she can even explain what she means by reincarnation.

zerdini


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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:58 pm

zerdini wrote:
Left Behind wrote:But then, Petal, if reincarnation IS true: would we have a choice in the matter?

Very good questions, Jim,but Joan cannot answer them because reincarnation is simply a belief with her with no evidence to back it up. Rolling Eyes

I very much doubt that she can even explain what she means by reincarnation.

Now Z., I bet she CAN. Smile

Jim

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Re: real or not?

Post by hiorta on Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:40 pm

"if reincarnation IS true: would we have a choice in the matter?

The answer to this seems to be the key of understanding to the topic.
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Re: real or not?

Post by petal34 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:52 pm

hiorta wrote:"if reincarnation IS true: would we have a choice in the matter?

The answer to this seems to be the key of understanding to the topic.

Well said,Hiorta. Smile

Thanks Jim.
Smile
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Re: real or not?

Post by Quiet on Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:53 pm

I don't know, either, but am interested. Two very good mediums I know believe in reincarnation.

I've read Dr. Michael Newton's books which put a refreshing perspective on the subject. They are well written and contain information that is not inconsistent with some of the material in spiritualist literature.

http://www.newtoninstitute.org/


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Re: real or not?

Post by Quiet on Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:59 pm

If, in fact, the purpose of this life is to develop spiritually and if such development is somehow enriched by human experience, then it makes sense that we might reincarnate.

That is just a logical line of thought.


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Re: real or not?

Post by hiorta on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:17 pm

Indeed quiet, there could well be multi-purpose for some, amends to be made for others and new ground to be broken for yet others.
According to SB this place is a place of learning and a place 'where the buds of promise started here will find fruition' further down our roads.
Reincarnation can suggest explanation as to why the genius, the gifted and talent for the few - if abilities have to be learned, where for example, did Leonardo Da Vincii learn the workings of the submarine?
Where did Gordon Smith acquire hs prodigious Mediumship?
How did the young lad Stephen Wiltshire learn to instantly replicate the most intricate scenes, yet was never at school because of his 'unteachable' condition?

It certainly seems that a physical Life of once-around-the-block would be insufficient to explain the great works of so many Masters in so many areas of excellence.
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Re: real or not?

Post by Quiet on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:38 pm

Thank you, hiorta.

I remember someone asking this question of a spirit in a trance session once and, from memory, the spirit avoided it beautifully - with good reason, no doubt. Smile

In quiet times I am personally aware that I am at the edge of a far deeper memory. This awareness often gives pause for thought and is now the source of a far greater commitment to silence and the spiritual development that might come from that.

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Re: real or not?

Post by petal34 on Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:45 pm

Quiet wrote:If, in fact, the purpose of this life is to develop spiritually and if such development is somehow enriched by human experience, then it makes sense that we might reincarnate.

That is just a logical line of thought.


That was I had in mind,Quiet.
Smile
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Re: real or not?

Post by zerdini on Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:34 pm

Left Behind wrote:
zerdini wrote:
Left Behind wrote:But then, Petal, if reincarnation IS true: would we have a choice in the matter?

Very good questions, Jim,but Joan cannot answer them because reincarnation is simply a belief with her with no evidence to back it up. Rolling Eyes

I very much doubt that she can even explain what she means by reincarnation.

Now Z., I bet she CAN. Smile

Jim

Then you would lose your bet, Jim Smile

zerdini


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Re: real or not?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:06 am

hiorta wrote:Indeed quiet, there could well be multi-purpose for some, amends to be made for others and new ground to be broken for yet others.
According to SB this place is a place of learning and a place 'where the buds of promise started here will find fruition' further down our roads.
Reincarnation can suggest explanation as to why the genius, the gifted and talent for the few - if abilities have to be learned, where for example, did Leonardo Da Vincii learn the workings of the submarine?
Where did Gordon Smith acquire hs prodigious Mediumship?
How did the young lad Stephen Wiltshire learn to instantly replicate the most intricate scenes, yet was never at school because of his 'unteachable' condition?

It certainly seems that a physical Life of once-around-the-block would be insufficient to explain the great works of so many Masters in so many areas of excellence.

This is an argument commonly proferred in favor of reincarnation. But one flaw in it is obvious: we argue for the existence of a phenomenon on the basis of extreme, atypical cases. How few Da Vinci's are there? How few child prodigies?

You could make an equally good argument that they are extreme cases of inborn, genetic talent. We all seem to have things that we're inherently good at: these few could simply be the same phenomenon, carried to the Nth degree.

Jim

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