Leslie Flint

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Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 12:57 am

I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on why so many of the male spirits that came through Leslie Flint sounded so similar, as if the same person was speaking. I understand that the spirits used Flint's ectoplasm to create a voice box but was it the same voice box? If so, that would explain the similarity in pitch and tone between the different male spirits.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by Admin on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:03 am

Hi,

I am sure Z can help with this as he attended Leslie's circle regularly
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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:10 am

Great, I look forward to his response.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by Admin on Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:59 am

Oh I also forgot to say that there are various pieces on Leslie Flint around the forum especially in the Trance Trnsfiguration and Direct Voice area
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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by zerdini on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:56 am

lyfsagerny wrote:I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me on why so many of the male spirits that came through Leslie Flint sounded so similar, as if the same person was speaking. I understand that the spirits used Flint's ectoplasm to create a voice box but was it the same voice box? If so, that would explain the similarity in pitch and tone between the different male spirits.

A similar question was put to me on Michael Prescott's blog and I replied as follows:

"No-one has ever suggested that to me. I do know that, in later years, Leslie was very concerned that copies of copies of copies of tapes were reproduced by people selling the tapes for profit which was never Leslieís intention. He said that he had heard some of these tapes which bore little resemblance to the originals. In fact he placed an advert in a psychic newspaper stating that he was not responsible for theses unauthorised reproductions. As far as voices sounding alike ...the voices I heard in the sťances in which I participated were all different. One couple who was in the circle regularly heard from their 16-year old son who had died from cancer and he certainly didnít sound like anyone else or like Leslie or Mickey (Leslieís child guide who acted as MC in the sťances).

"Personally I never had the slightest doubt, during the ten years I investigated his mediumship, that he was genuine. The evidence spoke for itself. I often took people along to a sťance simply by asking Leslie if I could bring a friend and he never asked any questions nor ever refused my request. They were not introduced to him till after the sťance."

It is true that they all used the same "voice box" which according to the infra red photographs of it appeared to be in the vicinity of his right shoulder although it could move arond the room.

The construction of the "voice box" seems to be different according to the medium used. For instance, details of the one used by communicators in the John Sloan seances differs from the explanation given in the Estelle Roberts seances and I am pretty sure that the same applies to most direct voice mediums.

I am aware of what you read on PM4U but that is usually by people who do not have the slightest idea what they are talking about.

I should also add that if you criticise physical mediumship too much on that site you may be in danger of being banned particularly if it is David's mediumship.

Quote from Robin Foy:

"Hi David,
I applaud your commitment to your work and to your determination to do what the spirit world want of you. In that, I can say that you mirror my own feelings. Like other physical mediums we have shared sittings with in the past and know to be 100% genuine, I would defend the quality of your mediumship to the death! (Here's hoping that much won't quite be necessary!!!) It would be great if you were able - at some time in the future - to share your work with delegates in Sunny Spain. Things are starting to pick up here regarding genuine interest in Physical phenomena where there have been few physical mediums available in the past.
Love, light and blessings,
Robin"

The were proposed visit never took place.

However, as posted on here earlier, DT and his crew will be visiting Florida in November:

David Thompson et al will be here in November 2009:

Shrine of the Master, Church of Metaphysical Christianity
852 South Tuttle Avenue, Sarasota, Florida 34237
Phone: (941) 953-6620 Fax: (941) 953-6650
Website: ShrineoftheMaster.com E-mail: Shrineofthemaster@verizon.net

The "transformation" we spoke about last month continues as we have shared the schedule of materialization sťances, workshops and demonstrations with our congregation. The Mental Mediumship workshop with Christine Morgan and the three materialization sťances with David Thompson sold out in 18 days. We contacted the David Thompson team in Sydney and asked about putting in another materialization sťance. They agree to replace the third deep trance demonstration with a fourth materialization sťance. It was sold out in 2 days.

Preference has been given to our members and those who attend church services.

The Shrine of the Master will host guests for these events from all over the United States including the cities of New York City, San Francisco, San Diego, Lily Dale, Cassadaga, Florida, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Detroit and Reno. People of different backgrounds will be joining us as we experience one of the rarest forms of physical mediumship in the world.

One thing for all of us to keep in mind is that the Spirit guides and teachers that have led the SOM for 60 years have helped to make this happen. Their desire as ours is to bring greater knowledge and understanding to those who are seeking spiritual truth. This series of events plus those planned with other mediums and teachers for 2010 will help to designate the SOM as a regional center for spiritual education and worship.

Your help will be needed as we get closer to November. This is an opportunity for us to put into practice our beliefs and the truths of Metaphysical Christianity. This will be a great adventure and Iím glad we are sharing the ride together!

Blessings and Peace,
Rev. Tom

zerdini


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by Admin on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:24 am

Hi Z,

In honesty some of the utube links on here show just how different his voice could be and are very impressive.


However, omg Z, The shrine of the master is 2012 ascention I will go on a limb the 2012 they all talk about will not, like its many predecessors ever happen. this world is perfect for the work of Spirit.


Last edited by Admin on Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by obiwan on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:35 am

Having listened to many of the recordings on the Leslie Flint website I can't say that many of them sound that similar. Some are vastly different and many attested to by people who knew the speakers.

In terms of similarity, two thoughts occurred to me (assuming fraud may be left aside);

1) My understanding is that a voice box is constructed for the purpose of communication. Is it possible this explains some of the similarity since presumably everyone will use the same voice box which may have certain characteristics affecting the quality of the sound produced?

2) Gentlemen of a certain class seem to speak in a similar (tone, pace, vocabulary etc.) way making it difficult to distinguish between them particularly if we do not know the individual concerned.

None of the voices sounded like Leslie Flint to me although some do indeed sound similar. There are however many that sound very distinctive.

Just a personal view.

obiwan


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:38 pm

Yes, I think the most logical explanation is that the voice box is an ectoplasmic artifact and is not meant to be a replica of actual vocal cords of the spirit entities when they were living on earth. I also think there was some connection to Flint's own vocal cords because I remember reading that he commented he had a certain scratchy feeling in his throat when spirits spoke through the ectoplasmic voice box, indicating some kind of connection. For those who think the adult male voices in the Flint seances do not sound very similar, I suggest you listen to 5 second segments of different spirits, one right after the other. It's very striking. I will provide a link that lists numerous seances that you can click on. They do sound like it is the same person speaking, with some variations in the tempo and style of speech. But the basic tone and timber is practically identical. I don't say this to imply fraud, but merely to seek a logical explanation. I think I am close to the answer now.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:13 pm

I found the website that provides an alphabetical listing of the various seances given through Leslie Flint. There are several other websites that offer these recordings but this one has a nice list of link you can click on for immediate access to the recordings. http://adcguides.com/librarynames.htm
The quality of some of the recordings are not very good, so I chose the ones that are clear enough to hear distinctly. Listen to "Alfred Frost", "Alfred Higgins", and "Alfred Pritchett". Just a few seconds of each, one right after the other, and ignore the commentators in the background. I think it striking how similar they all sound. Even the hissing and whistling at the beginning and ending of certain words, which is characteristic of certain speech patterns. There are many more examples on that list, but I just picked out the first three male voices in a row. In recordings of other spirits, the accents tend to mask the speech patterns, but even those are very similar. I am objectively stating that they sound very similar. I have no hidden agenda or desire to discredit Mr. Flint. I WANT to believe he was genuine. And I still do. I am merely seeking a logical explanation to the plain observation that the male voices sound as though they are coming from the same person, with some variations in tempo and style that anyone can do with their voices. Objectivity should be our main disposition when dealing with any phenomenon. Let the skeptics bring their arguments. We should welcome them, as long as they are reasonable objections. Real seekers of truth, which I assume you all are because I know belief in physical proof of the afterlife is outside the mainstream of society, should always welcome critical thinking. If you can respond to critical analysis objectively, then it can only strengthen your own convictions. That's the way I see it.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by obiwan on Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:03 pm

I don't think they are that much alike to be honest but you're entitled to your view. There are many that certainly do not sound alike, I don't think any of the voices you mention sound like Flint either (though you didn't suggest they did).

How much of the research carried out into Flint have you had an opportunity to read? There is quite a lot of it, along with one or two people on here who actually knew and sat with him. You should find this a useful place to ask questions.

Like you, my own view is that †Flint is very interesting and I have seen nothing at all that realistically suggests he was fraudulent (which is quite surprising in itself). I don't think it is practical to advance further than that without having direct access to his sittings which is regrettably no longer possible.


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:23 pm

Fair enough, we can agree to disagree although I still feel confident that even a speech expert would agree that they do sound similar. But again, that is not proof that the seances were fraudulent. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just trying to figure out why the voices sound so similar. And I think the answer lies in the fact that the voice box being used may be the same for all the male voices. This also makes sense because an exact replica of the spirit's vocal cords, tongue, and sinus cavity while on earth might be more difficult for them to ascertain or reproduce. So, it's probably just easier to model a voice box from the anatomical structures of the medium himself. That's what I'm supposing. I could try to impersonate different people, and even though each voice would sound different, if you studied it carefully you would conclude all the voices came from the same person, me. There are certain characterists of your vocal cords, tongue, and sinus cavity that you cannot hide. You're correct, I have never heard Leslie Flint himself speak, so I cannot compare his voice to the spirits that come through his ectoplasm. But I stand by my observation that many of the male voices sound very similar in tone, timber, pitch, and speech anomolies (slurs, hissing, and whistling).

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by zerdini on Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:21 pm

lyfsagerny wrote:Fair enough, we can agree to disagree although I still feel confident that even a speech expert would agree that they do sound similar. But again, that is not proof that the seances were fraudulent. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just trying to figure out why the voices sound so similar. And I think the answer lies in the fact that the voice box being used may be the same for all the male voices. This also makes sense because an exact replica of the spirit's vocal cords, tongue, and sinus cavity while on earth might be more difficult for them to ascertain or reproduce. So, it's probably just easier to model a voice box from the anatomical structures of the medium himself. That's what I'm supposing. I could try to impersonate different people, and even though each voice would sound different, if you studied it carefully you would conclude all the voices came from the same person, me. There are certain characterists of your vocal cords, tongue, and sinus cavity that you cannot hide. You're correct, I have never heard Leslie Flint himself speak, so I cannot compare his voice to the spirits that come through his ectoplasm. But I stand by my observation that many of the male voices sound very similar in tone, timber, pitch, and speech anomolies (slurs, hissing, and whistling).

The same voice box was used for all communicating entities - men, women, children, guides etc.

zerdini


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:30 pm

Ok, that explains a lot. Thanks for your response. I have heard many critics in different blogs dismiss the reality of spirit materalization because they noticed, like I did, that many of the voices sound similar. Now I can answer their criticism with some degree of confidence. Seek and ye shall find! Thanks again.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by zerdini on Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:36 pm

lyfsagerny wrote:Ok, that explains a lot. Thanks for your response. I have heard many critics in different blogs dismiss the reality of spirit materalization because they noticed, like I did, that many of the voices sound similar. Now I can answer their criticism with some degree of confidence. Seek and ye shall find! Thanks again.

By the way, Vincent, Leslie Flint was not a materialization medium he was an Independent Direct Voice medium.

I believe that is still the best and the most evidential form of mediumship.

zerdini


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:00 pm

Really? More evidential than the full body materializations from Alec Harris and Helen Duncan?

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by Guest on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:40 pm

It's perhaps worth remembering that there are other factors to be born in mind concerning the timbre and tone of a spirit communicator's voice as perceived by listeners to an ectoplasmic voicebox.

The voicebox produced from ectoplasm is not a replica of an individual communicator's own. It is an all-purpose creation that must be influenced by thought on the part of each communicator. Two big factors therefore come in to the equation. First, the communicator must mentally recall the sound of his/her earthly voice. I sat for a moment before writing this post to try to imagine the sound of my own, which many tell me is quite distinctive. I found it very hard to do. Second, the communicator not only has to imagine this successfully in order to reproduce an earthly facsimile - he or she must also contend with the emotion (and perhaps nervousness) of returning to earthly conditions in order to convery a message. We cannot know all that is involved in that process but it is perhaps fair to assume that it may be complicated.

Alan

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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:47 pm

Yes, very good considerations Alan. Thanks for your thoughts. They do shed more light on the issue.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by zerdini on Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:57 pm

lyfsagerny wrote:Really? More evidential than the full body materializations from Alec Harris and Helen Duncan?

Very few have seen a full form materialisation but many have experienced direct voice in their own home circles so yes it can be more evidential talking to your loved ones.

It is also easier to develop if you have the dedication and commitment.

zerdini


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:09 pm

Well, then why don't all direct voice seances occur with red lights so that the sitters can at least see with absolute certainty that the voices are not coming from the medium?

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by zerdini on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:20 pm

lyfsagerny wrote:Well, then why don't all direct voice seances occur with red lights so that the sitters can at least see with absolute certainty that the voices are not coming from the medium?

Depends on the medium. In the case of Leslie Flint he often spoke at the same time as the communicators or took part in the conversations. Light is not an issue as it is the evidence that counts unlike materializations which have to be seen to be evidential.

zerdini


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:24 pm

Yes, but red light can reveal without any denial that nobody else is standing near the medium as an accomplice and also show that the medium is not producing the voice. Although, now that I come to think of it, a good ventriloquist can do the same thing. But at least it can eliminate any conjecture that an accomplice is present.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by obiwan on Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:41 pm

If the person communicating through Direct Voice was someone known to you then I suggest you would not need to see an 'ectoplasmic voicebox' or whatever it is supposed to be, to determine that. I would expect to be able to recognise a friend or family as I do all the time on the phone without seeing them by not just their voice but also the content of their conversation. I really cannot see how having sight of the voicebox will make any difference in that respect. Although I agree it would prove to those in the room that there was no accomplice present. How would an accomplice help in mimicking members of your family or have access to sufficient intimate details of your life to pose as an old friend?

Even if I was present, without knowing the communicator personally I don't really see how one could be absolutely sure of a person's identity no matter how well known they were. So from my own perspective, although the recordings are interesting and persuasive, they are not for me, conclusive proof of survival.

As an aside there is a photo purporting to be of such an object in Leslie's biography. Is it genuine - who can prove that? I don't think it takes us further forward as photographs can be faked as can video - perhaps a lot more easily these days than in Leslie's day.

obiwan


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:12 am

Yes, I suppose then that there is no substitute for the experience of actual one one one personal communication with the spirit of a loved one. But for the many who think that physical mediumship and direct voice seances are nothing more than parlor tricks, the more evidence that can be presented the better. I'm sure there are those who refuse to be convinced, but I'm equally sure there are many who are on the fence about this whole thing and would just like to see more proof. Then again, I suppose that it is part of a person's path and spiritual progress to seek out the proof for himself because these phenomena do appear to exist and it is a matter of seeking them out and eventually experiencing them first hand.

lyfsagerny


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by zerdini on Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:46 am

lyfsagerny wrote:Yes, but red light can reveal without any denial that nobody else is standing near the medium as an accomplice and also show that the medium is not producing the voice. Although, now that I come to think of it, a good ventriloquist can do the same thing. But at least it can eliminate any conjecture that an accomplice is present.

Ventriloquism doesn't work in the dark!

Leslie Flint didn't have any accomplices - the evidence spoke for itself.

I had a normal conversation with my grandfather and it was not similar to the medium or any other communicators.

zerdini


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Re: Leslie Flint

Post by lyfsagerny on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:07 am

Well then, your experiences speak for themselves. I'm sure there's no substitute for that. On a separate note I thought you might be interested in the following unsolicited comment David Thompson made to me. ...... Oh, and btw, welcome back.

lyfsagerny


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