Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

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Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 23, 2009 10:30 am

Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Hello folks as you will probably know I visited The Arthur Findley College for a couple of days as a guest on the JV trust week where I was well treated by the organizers and had an eventful and fruitful time there. The only thing that did not sit well with me was the divine service where the platform party were using the throwing out or fishing method which did not come up to the standards expected and some would even say it was cold reading.

I then went on to the SNU AGM which was another eventful and rewarding time for me however it was not so with the NEC with most off their proposals being flung out and I do not wish to comment on them as they come under the heading of politics. What I will comment on is when the NEC were challenged by a delegate about this throwing out method used by SNU mediums and the President retorted it was never a directive by the NEC and mediums were free to choose what-ever method that suited them and we know this is not the case and it seems the NEC have done a splendid u turn. A similar question was put to the healing committee about how trainee healers are taught and the answer given was the healing medium can use any method they and their inspirer's choose provided that no delicate parts be touched and this is another unbelievable u turn. We all know that trainees who do not work the way they are taught by the tutors will be failed and this is a travesty because no two tutors teach the same way. At long last the NEC. of the SNU are seeing the light and maybe now they can try and put the spiritual back into spiritualist and stem the unrest in the movement. L&L JOCK


Last edited by merlin on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:33 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Corrected some of the spelling)

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:47 pm

Hello folks as you will probably know I visited The Arthur Findley College for a couple of days as a guest on the JVtrust week where I was well treated by the organisers and had an eventfull and fruitfull time there. The only thing that did not sit well with me was the divine service where the platform party were useing the throwing out or fishing method which did not come up to the standerds expected and some would even say it was cold reading to say the least.

Well Jock,
If you are referring to the Divine Service at the JV Trust week where the mediums were Gerard Smith and Eileen Davies, two of the finest mediums demonstrating today, then I would suggest you need your eyes and ears examined.

I know both of these demonstrators extremely well and fully concur with Susan Farrow's write-up in the Psychic News today.

There is no resemblance between cold reading and the way these two mediums work. They give evidence of survival which is what true mediumship is all about.

As far as the rest of your remarks about the SNU AGM are concerned readers can make up their own mind when they read the full write-up in next week's PN.

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Guest on Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:08 pm

I did not see you there please get your facts correct they were not the mediums taking part in the dem I was at on the wedensday I did not say they were cold reading I said some might say. please try to be a bit more objective and do not try to shoot the messenger it is not cricket. Have a nice day

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:42 pm

merlin wrote:I did not see you there please get your facts correct they were not the mediums taking part in the dem I was at on the wedensday I did not say they were cold reading I said some might say. please try to be a bit more objective and do not try to shoot the messenger it is not cricket. Have a nice day

Jock,

I wrote "If you are referring to the Divine Service at the JV Trust week where the mediums were Gerard Smith and Eileen Davies, two of the finest mediums demonstrating today, then I would suggest you need your eyes and ears examined.

This was the service reported in PN. It seems you didn't bother to read what I wrote so it is you who needs to get his facts right.

Have a nice day,

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Admin on Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:32 am

I sense cross purposes here I think Jock clearly said Wednesday . However I am glad that Z pointed out this was different to the Sunday whch I had heard reports that it was exceptional.

Thanks for the AGM report Merlin it is a total change. We had a nearly qualified Tutor here who said she had been instructed she Must deonstrate and teach in this manner. She also said it was a standing rule which onlt a few reactionaries resisted..

Like you I hate the method, it is clumsy and often looks like you are trying to pin a message onto someone. Message vampires often grab the communication too leaving a medium looking vaguely silly.

In honesty when you have drawn a Spirit to you, closely they know who they are for so why the need to hunt. My understanding of the system is that in its perfect form (which is why the trainee tutor was told to do it) you are meant to do the Communicator and Evidence before linking to the person teh message is for BUT you are meant to then go directly. Sadly it appears very few do this instead they call the name and dribble evidence whilst trying to find the recipient.

Having tried the perfect form, as something of a newbie on platform, I can tell you it is very tough compared to my normal method of asking my guide to show me who the next message is for and connecting with the Spirit. However when it works it feels a bit special because until you have finished relationship, evidence etc you have no idea, nor do the audience who you are going to. When you then go to the person and they say yes to all of the information it has a bit of the wow factor for observers.

Of course if you want to teach the perfect way you should be able to do it or be honest explain that your own Mediumship may not match this standard (in which case go back to direct connection) but this is the pinnacle that trainees should seek. Before I start demonstrating I try and explain what I am seeking to do and the processes

Nerve Wracking though and I have had trouble getting it to work more than twice in a row after which I panic a bit and go straight to those spirit send me to. B hard when you have the communicator and evidence but panic before you have placed them with a loved one.
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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:37 am

I sense cross purposes here I think Jock clearly said Wednesday .

He didn't mention Wednesday, Jim, he referred to the Divine Service which PN reported on as being on the Sunday.

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Admin on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:40 am

True but then changed his comments as below
they were not the mediums taking part in the dem I was at on the wedensday
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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:48 am

Admin wrote:True but then changed his comments as below
they were not the mediums taking part in the dem I was at on the wedensday

True - better late than never! Very Happy

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Admin on Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:50 am

Just as well with the PN article about the divine service and the exciting feedback I received about it
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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Martin T on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:00 am

Like you I hate the method, it is clumsy and often looks like you are trying to pin a message onto someone. Message vampires often grab the communication too leaving a medium looking vaguely silly.

Hi Jim

As a regular attendee at the Arthur Findlay College (about 4 times a year) and a working medium myself I thought I would put my two pennorth in on this one. The first and key point is that not all mediums have direction and so a number will always have to work using the "throwing it out" method. At the AFC, they teach both methods and a significant number of the tutors do not actually go direct!

If using the the "throwing it out method" - the medium has to get some good evidence to quickly get them to the recipient of the message. I primarily work in this way and the advantages are that the medium has to get a high standard of evidence to narrow it down to one person quickly (especially in a large dem of 100 or more) and it also keeps the audience interest since everyone listens until they are knocked out by evidence that doesn't fit. Of course, the disadvantages are that it opens up the medium to more message grabbers and can look a bit clumsy. The skeptics can have a field day with it in that they view it as fishing and that the medium makes the evidence fit someone!

With "going direct", the "correct" method taught by Gordon Higginson and now widely taught by the tutors at Stansted is to first establish a link with the spirit communicator, get some evidence (usually 3 to 5 good pieces) then feel who you are being drawn to. When it works, it looks very good and is quite powerful to the casual observer. It is however quite difficult to do in reality and takes experience and a strong link. The disadvantages of this method are that it has less audience involvement and can be boring for some of those not getting the message. In fact, if the mediumís direction is incorrect and they are not with the correct recipient, the rest of the audience may have switched off making it much harder to find the correct recipient. In addition, the medium may not push for such good evidence if going direct.

There are many other ways of going direct which are commonly taught including choosing your recipient then asking for a link for them, being drawn to a person (whether by a guide directing you or just feeling drawn). In such cases, a number of mediums are taught to start working on the psychic first then see if you can get a link. I personally feel all of these methods are inappropriate because it looks like the medium is choosing who gets the contact not allowing Spirit to come forward for those most in need. Whilst it can look effective, for me it is just not cricket! As a purist, I prefer Gordonís approach where we link to spirit first, get some evidence then allow the power to guide us to our recipient.

Of course the hybrid of the two is that you are drawn to an area rather than a specific individual. Even excellent mediums like Gordon Higginson would work with the hybrid model or a mix of the two styles (even if they knew exactly who they were drawn to) since it builds and maintains power by keeping audience interest. I therefore think a good medium should work with a mix of the two styles rather than one exclusively.

Just my humble opinion!

Martin

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by obiwan on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:37 am

Good points Martin. It not only looks like fishing, it looks like cold reading. I think if one checks that ALL of the pieces of information fit then it will perhaps be more convincing to the observer.

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Martin T on Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:56 am

Hi Obiwan

Most quality tutors teach that ALL of the evidence has to be checked and confirmed with the recipient to demonstrate that the medium has the correct recipient.

A contact thrown out which has very specific evidence can still look powerful. For example, throwing out a contact of a fisherman who worked on fishing boats at sea but had to stop when he lost his hand will likely only have one recipient in a room of a hundred people. A grandmother who liked cooking and wore a pinny will not narrow your recipient down much and most likely the whole room will be able to take it. It's all about the quality of the evidence.

Equally I have seen many many mediums go direct and say "I've got your grandmother here and they are telling me...." and then just give psychic information which could fit anyone. No evidence at all and for me that is even worse! If you have them, prove it or at least give sufficient evidence that indicates that they are there on the balance of probabilities.

As you can see, I am passionate about quality mediumship!

All the best

Martin

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by obiwan on Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:00 pm

Quite right. It's a pity more churches up here don't share your passion.

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Admin on Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:59 am

Hi Martin,

I agree whatever method used the quality of the evidence and speed of delivery is vital. Less so when you are working to that "perfect" model. Like you we are passionate to see improvements in Mediumship.

If the Medium is not in charge of that then whatever method it will not work but the Fishing net approach will end up looking worse. If you use the Direct method hopefully you will stop if it is not accepted after 3 attempts regroup and go on(if you are well taught that is what you will do). With the fishing net I have seen some real doosy's where the evidence was too general with teh message highjacked by someone and mangled.

However, I must say I am glad I met up with Spiritualism before this approach was brought in. Yes my wife is a Medium involved for 43 years and working for many of them. When I met her in 1983 and she took me to Ilford Spiritualist Church the medium was direct and very accurate giving me a relative who would not be top of the mind. The next week Gordon Higginson was on at Ilford and was similarly direct and extraordinarily accurate. Lis was working the East London circuit of 28 churches (and a few SAGB demos) like all the mediums of that era it was direct (Bill another member on here was a Medium of the same era who worked that way).

I think this is the only approach that would have won my intellect over, the throw out a name then bits of evidence to find teh recipient has not been done well on the occasions I have seen it. The trainee TSNU I saw was probably the best but it did not match anything I saw in the past. Interestingly the NSAC in the USA still go direct as policy and when Rev Anne Gehman came from them to visit us (she was one of the mediums in Garry Schwartz Afterlife Experiments) she was a delight and one of the best mediums.

There was a one large difference back then, most of the Mediums had learned over time in development circles not from courses. Lis started her training in oz with the President of the Victorian Spiritualist Union, George Eldred a fine trance and mental medium. Arriving in the UK she continued training and when I met her she was in a closed development circle which was comprised of platform mediums. This was run by an older very fine SNU qualified medium who was a martinet. She followed the links people were made and if she felt they were wrong or not performing properly in the circle told them to sit down and shut up. Those were the rules and they all willingly agreed because the improvement was clear.

Additionally, at the time there were many mediums wanting to get on the circuit and the competition helped drive peope on. After every platform Lis would get a call, the next booking and some comment on how it had gone. I just get the feeling the loss of development groups like this have left people too dependent on the courses.

It was a long journey which ensured a high level of skills. I have been exposed to elements of this in my training. The latest platform mediums training group is being run by Lis on the old basis and its members have committed to accept the method and work for the churches when they are ready.

I have also been on the courses we have arranged with visitors like Rev Anne Gehman and have picked up skills and techniques but particularly to use in the Development Groups I run. I found that over time people became discouraged on courses many expected thay would over several be Mediums more sadly some thought they were. It is from those with talent who attend that you can draw a pool together to start the real work.

The core of my training is from the circles. Oh yes and by watching others. In particular Lis a fine medium with a strong grasp of the process and that uncanny ability to monitor the links that other mediums make (or don't). that skill of following others links is one which is still not constant with me unless in my group there is someone with genuine talent when Spirit help me.

Passionate yes but we intend to insure people have the techniques and understanding. One of our rules in the circle is to establish who you are going to as all Church Mediums seemed to in the past(probably except in some of the huge demonstrations).

Only throw it out if you have very very good evidence which it seems you are doing Martin and well done for it.

I also set my personal intent to achieve the result and use the few quiet times we get to link to visiting spirits before we start without asking who they are for. Its given me some lovely moments too like the two elderly ladies in spirit who pulled chairs up and sledged me as not looking like much and do you think he'll see us here.

The other problem with fishing net approach is it has become widespread with poor Mediumship indeed too often its that or Psychic pick up only. Reading the PN reports of a rather dispairing roving reporter after church visits about the call of I have a Frank here (not taken) plus the comments here from Obi show just how far we have to go.

Jim
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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:20 am

Eastbourne
The 2009 AGM was held in July at the Winter Gardens in Eastbourne.

The accommodation hotel and conference centre were good facilities and, along with the meeting's visual displays, most delegates felt that Finance Committee had done an excellent job in organising the event.
Proposals to re-structure the SNU's management structure and to abolish the National Council narrowly failed to achieve the required support of the meeting.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by hiorta on Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:34 am

""the National Council narrowly failed to achieve the required support of the meeting.""

Like the inaccurate title of 'Spiritualist National Union', the 'national' council ----- to which Nation do these 'national' labels refer?

I have asked this question before in different forums and it immediately becomes invisible.
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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Guest on Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:02 pm

Hello the noo as far as some are concerned it seems it is the nation of England it could be spiritualist international union we will have to get the name changed and the charity commission are the ones to do it because this is a racist title at present.

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Admin on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:01 am

Hi you two,

Well in the safety of Oz of course the SNU is of Great Britain not England and I would believe a number of eminent Scots have, in the past contributed to it. I gree that in the new circumstances of seperate assemblies in Scotland and Wales the concept of a single National Council becomes more complex. I guess as it is a National Council of Great Britain, which still exists as a legal entity, I doubt the Charities Commission would do much especially as the body has existed for so long.

Now I know nothing of the politics involved in all of this regarding the SNU but my experience says we need in each, let us say, geographic area (who wee the Spiritualist National Union of the European Commission thats got a good ring to it...it could take out all the racial troubles in the Disunited Kingdom by moving its headquarters to Brussels) because without that you will end up with no adequate and generally acceptable principles, training or clairvoyance. The problem you face now will expand rapidly, sadly Oz is a good example of the future without some central body.

In the link here on the Gordon Higginson Videos the lecture at the start of the centenary meeting says why it was formed. The reasons remain valid and if the delivery is sub optimal then that is humankind. Politics occur almost the minute 3 people get together and it is rare that the most suitable person ends up running anything. Many of the best people are not interested in the politics of managemment but in the work for spirit. As a result we tend to end up with what we deserve running things through our own actions.

I know you are involved in this Merlin but to any others around the SNU I would reccomend re-engagement but to take an active interest in what is happening. This is a pivotal time when the standards of mediumship, of talks and the delivery of meetings all needs resuscitation. Too many places are becoming all things to all new age people and failing to deliver the simple but wonderful philosophy of Spiritualism. These are big deeds to try to turn the situation round and require all the people who can to push change

By the by I think many English on here would like you Scots to take Gordon Brown back too, maybe he could become your President.

Cheers

Jim
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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:45 am

Well said, Jim. As for Gordon Brown...................!!!

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by Guest on Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:09 am

[b] MrBrowns remark to MrCameron was this is no time for novices and he is correct the UK has weathered the past events better than some and is leading the world . Cool

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:54 pm

merlin wrote:[b] MrBrowns remark to MrCameron was this is no time for novices and he is correct the UK has weathered the past events better than some and is leading the world . Cool

Brown will be thrown out at the next election if not sooner - that is my confident prediction. Laughing

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by obiwan on Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:50 pm

I couldn't agree more. The big question is which pile of trash will replace him.

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by zerdini on Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:07 am

Very Happy

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Re: Some Thoughts on the recent AGM of the SNU

Post by hiorta on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:59 am

To return to the topic: it seems undisputed that a clandestine movement has been busy building a physical empire while proclaiming Spiritual verities. Duplicitous or what?

It seems the great efforts of so many wise folk from further along Lifes road has been adulterated and subverted by those secretly following a different drummer.
This could explain the decline of Spiritual power that is being felt by so many.

It all seems much like the monkey with its hand trapped in the jar because it cannot let go in order to be free.
Very appropriate indeed.

In the words of Silver Birch, explaining the Law: 'those who haven't earned it cannot obtain it'
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