what now?

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Re: what now?

Post by Admin on Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:08 pm

Very nice duck there Obi, once when I was in my 20's I wore a plastic policemans helmet with one of those stuck on top for the whole of an 18-30's social camp at Easter. Fortunately no incriminating pictures exist anyway after all this time they would be sepia tinted.

Thanks for your reply Mac its in very good accord with the information I have been getting from a variety of sources in the USA even some close to the NSAC. Indeed the feedback is matters are worse than the UK and the flow of good Mediums is even smaller. It is concerning that after Rev Anne Gehman I could get no genuine reccomendation of younger Mediums to bring to Australia.

Yes Happy Healer I would love to hear more from you the USA has the same geographical disadvantage we have in OZ the tyranny of distance meaning it is hard to move the good mediums round to demonstrate good Mediumship. Looking at the thread on here with Gordon Higginson videos on it is a reminder of the standard we are aspiring too. The really strong CERT approach...Communicator, Evidence, Reason for being here and the tying it all up to end matters.

I note your comment
What we have observed is that we are on the cusp of a new era of Spiritualism. It isn't so much as redefined as it is enhanced. In my circle of 50-somethings, we have all had the same visions of what will unfold. If one has a vision, is it a prediction? If three people have the same vision, is it prophecy?

I would be happier if I heard this generally from global groups around teh world. In fact yours seems sadly to be the only one receiving it. You would be well aware that even in work groups some kind of group think can come about because of our underlying wishes so this can happpen even more easily in circles. The apparent reccurent success of the fatally damaged Ascension movement (because of the number of times it has repeated without doing any of the claimed events) is an example of the risks inherent in accepting somethiing which appears to offer great change.

From where I am it seems that the movement is destined to get much smaller. Like Mac I am a dedicated Spiritualist that believes in the philkosophy as a vital part of the truth of survival. However, I find that our "belief" free in many ways of restrictive dogma is much more approachable than many others. Sadly as more and more centres adopt adapt and change incorporating new agisms the underlying simplicity is lost and miraculous changes become acceptable. This then becomes a picture of Spiritualism which is hard for those who believe in the simple original version to surmount. I suspect we have a little way more to go on the downward path and the change will only occur when the Spiritualist Movement has top flight Mediums providing the Proof and sufficiently educated people to back it up with well presented and interesting philosophy.

Anyway thats some of my reflections
Jim
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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:19 am

Hi-howdy and thanks for the replies.

Mac, I don't want to come off as a Pollyanna but perhaps I'm more optimistic about the future. Just because I believe in a positive future does not mean that I do not witness negativity in Spiritualist centers.

Perhaps it's because I believe in the Law of Attraction and that what I put out, I will attract. In my vicinity, I have watched the old-time mediums succumb to ego and less-than-desirable personality traits. The Law of Thought and Manifestation states that thoughts are things, energy follows thought - if one puts out the curmudgeon attitude, curmudgeons will sit on your doorstep. The others Light seekers will go away and search for a more positive group. (Please understand that this observation is not a reflection on you or others, merely what I perceive in my own community)

It's not all goody two shoes and sweetness, so what does my circle fight against?

- A mindset that exhibits the very definition of insanity by doing the same things over and over yet expect a different outcome. I think somebody mentioned stagnation (good term). The good old days may have been good. But they are also old. Freshen up the presentation and learn how to reach a changing populace.
-Teachers who are offended that a student comes to them already knowing much more than the teacher. "How dare that person know something without me telling them first!" Puh-leez. Get a grip.
- Mediums who treat the public as if they were stupid. That's offensive, imo. Get over yourself already.

On the other hand, there are many positives. I count myself fortunate that I have moved into a community of people whose main focus is to serve. Is it different in your countries? Do your mediums not have that same desire to serve mankind? Every person I've met in the last four years had that goal in mind whether they were a healer, a medium or minister. The folks I choose to associate with continue their daily routine as one of service.

In the previous comments by members, I sense an air of despair and even some level of being jaded. We can only comment on what our life experiences have been. Perhaps if I moved back into a community that had little to zero Spiritualists around, it would be possible that I would have similar perceptions. But I would never let my hope for a brighter future die.

As an aside, I have seen a future that will grow dismal with upheavals of all kinds. Out of these ruins, people will be looking for solace and comfort and peace to their hearts. They will need strong people who can help them through the dark times- people like us, for we know what lies on both sides of the Veil. And we understand persecution and misunderstanding. It will be up to those of us who understand life after death to show the others how to find the beauty in times of despair.

Mac, I'm not certain what tangible evidence would satisfy you. I taught dance for 25 years and I keenly observed children and their awareness of consciousness. The last 5 years of teaching brought me in touch with some wonderful students. Inexplicably, they related to me their experiences of Spirit - clairvoyance, clairaudiance, clairsentience. I was careful not to overstep the boundaries of my position while still assuring them that they were normal.

I was so fortunate to teach a class of 8-11 year olds who had an extraordinary group consciousness. Once a month I would play a game of Simon Says by using dance steps to help them associate terms with movement or poses. This particular class was too good and I could never get any of them "out" of the game. I decided to trick them. I said Simon Says arms second position yet in my mind I picture the arms in first position. Every single child placed their arms in first position. They did what I was thinking, not what I asked for. This happened several times.

I carried this experiment further without the children knowing what I was up to. When I sent the group to the corner in preparation for them to dance across the room, I had my back turned to them as I selected the music. I had not told them what particular movement they were to do but when I turned around they were all posed and ready to start the exercise of what I was thinking. Again, these kids were tapping into the images of my mind.

I began to notice other things. While they were doing their exercises and when I needed to correct a child's posture, if I started walking towards them from behind (not where they could see me coming) that child automatically corrected herself before I could touch her. This class accomplished more in that year than any other class of that age and technical ability that I have ever taught. They danced to a challenging piece of music and never once needed to look to me for cues when they performed. They also received a standing ovation, the first ever for any of my students over the years.

So.....you may say, that's just an example of telepathic messages and imagery. This is psychic. Sure. My answer is that these are random children brought together by the Law of Attraction who showed me that consciousness is changing. And that teachers need to be prepared to adapt to these changes, be aware of what our students are capable of doing, and prepare them to accept that these "feats" are normal not extraordinary.

These were 8-11 year old children. If they were exhibiting these sorts of gifts in my dance class, what else were they doing outside of class that I was not aware of? I can only speculate about their awareness of Spirit and what gifts of mediumship they could be capable of. THAT is the future. Children like this who can grow up to contribute to the future of Spiritualism. Alas, I moved away and have lost touch with these fine young ladies who are now 14-18 years old.

So now in my community, I come in contact with a crop of 20-somethings. These young people have extraordinary gifts yet are conflicted and in disarray because of...well, what we all have experienced, I'm sure, social conditioning that suppresses our awareness. These young folks can already see auras and elementals and they have an array of healing abilities. They can see and hear Spirit. They possess a deep desire to be of service and not for material or personal gain. These youngsters are on an open path of searching for answers. They don't need to be treated with stuffy arrogance and condescension. They need guidance and encouragement as they go through their unfoldment.

Sadly, many of the "old guard" mediums don't get it. They refuse to get it. They feel that their status is being threatened so therefore it's easier for them to chase away anyone that annoys them. I refuse to be chased off. My friends refuse to be chased away. We refuse to allow the youngsters to be chased off. No. Enough is enough. We're here to stay and build communities of future mediums.

And so I ask of you, Mac and other members, what is it you want? What do you envision of Spiritualist centers? What sort of community do you desire? What ideal Spiritualism would produce that result in your future? And what is stopping you?

We understand that the Law of Change states that all things physical and non-physical are constantly changing. And all life is in a constant process of re-creating itself anew in each moment. So isn't Spiritualism also adhering to that Law? Or the Law of Progression which guarantees the constant unfoldment or progression of all beings? If Spiritualism is following this cycle and if we are in a low point of the circle we only have one place to go and that is UP!

My husband made his transition to spirit last year. He was not a part of my community of mediums so nobody knew him. Nor did they know anything about us as a married couple. A few of the good mediums have given messages to me from the platform, things they could never have known about our lives or about him. Their mediumship abilities remain top notch, in my eyes. Other mediums struggled to pass the evidential test. My new circle of friends came into my life after my husband's passing and they continually tap into his vibration with clarity and truth. And from the platform, they continue to give me messages from my guides about things that nobody has been privy to.

Some old timers do Trance and Direct Voice. They fail every time in proving that my husband is talking to me. I have come to view Trance and Direct Voice as more fraudulent than truth. Also, it is my observation that the folks who receive messages are ones that the mediums know well. The day that I see a new visitor get a message, a true message, I will believe in Direct Voice and Trance again.

And so now, my comfy bed beckons me yet again..... Have a wonderful day, everyone!
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Re: what now?

Post by zerdini on Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:54 am

Happy Healer wrote:

Some old timers do Trance and Direct Voice. They fail every time in proving that my husband is talking to me.

Do you mean direct Voice through a trumpet or Indendent Direct Voice as demonstrated by Leslie Flint?

www.leslieflint.com

Cheers

Z

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Re: what now?

Post by mac on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:47 am

I'd love to be convinced that you, Happy Healer, are indeed seeing evidence of all you claim. Yes, indeed, you may be that Pollyanna just as I am the Jeremiah of the boards! Laughing But seriously....

The accounts you give of your young ones are encouraging but where that leads them we can only wait and see. Their sensitivity is hardly novel, albeit perhaps unusual by being so concentrated in one place - I have no means of judging. It may always have been thus.... There's a very great gap between psychic sensitivity, however, and being able to develop it into something useful.

You'd have to explain "The Law of Thought and Manifestation" for me as it's one with which I'm not familiar. Question I'm also perplexed by "These young folks can already see auras and elementals" Elementals? Unsure, too, about the "Law of Change" "Law of Progression" These are laws of which I am unaware and which don't fit my understanding of Spiritualism. I'm not unaware, however, where they do fit as I communicate with many other activity-group members. But this is a Spiritualism forum ....

I don't want to seem negative - although I'm sure that I do!!! - Razz - but I feel I have had a similar 'conversation' elsewhere on various occasions. You ask, HH, "And so I ask of you, Mac and other members, what is it you want? What do you envision of Spiritualist centers? What sort of community do you desire? What ideal Spiritualism would produce that result in your future? And what is stopping you?" Five questions which I'll take separately.

Firstly and secondly, I don't want anything for me. I would like for others nothing less than the standards once prevalent in churches and preferably much better.

The community would be one in which the message of survival was paramount - nothing happy-clappy or New Age unless it broadened that simplest of messages that we can not, and do not, die. I don't much care what the community profile is like otherwise.

I can't relate to an "..ideal Spiritualism.." - I just like Spiritualism as it can be at its simplest.

What is stopping me? Diffidence and inability to bring about a significant change. The rest will speak for themselves.


Last edited by mac on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:13 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: what now?

Post by zerdini on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:51 am

I thought it might be a good idea if I published how Mrs Greene, who together with Mr Woods, sat with Leslie Flint for many years, described Independent Direct Voice:

In direct voice it is very important to remember that the spirit voice is not coming through the medium’s lips; in other words they are not speaking through the medium, but completely independently, about three feet away.

In everybody there is a substance known as ectoplasm, which is a life force.

Although the direct voice medium has certain strong powers, to enable the spirit voices to be heard, it has to be a combination of the sitters and the medium, because ectoplasm has to be drawn from the sitters, as they provide the negative element which must be coupled to the positive element drawn from the medium, in order that an etheric voice box, or mask as it is sometimes called, may be constructed, through which the spirit communicators can communicate their thoughts.

The voice box, automatically transmitting those thoughts as sound, will reach the sitters as the voice, therefore the sitters are very important. Some sitters may actually feel the power being drawn from them, and at the end of a sitting may feel rather depleted. This may be especially so in the case of a single sitter.

If you were to take an infra-red photograph during a. direct voice séance, you would see cords of ectoplasm emanating from the medium and the sitters and joining up to form what looks like a ball of mist, or the voice box which, we understand, is a replica of the vocal organs, and whilst the spirit communicators are using this voice box, they have lowered their vibrations to reach the earth vibration.

This explains why the spirit voice may not sound quite like the earth voice - it may be a little distorted. It is rather like when we telephone somebody - often we say we did not recognise so-and-so’s voice. Their voice is being transmitted artificially by means of an instrument which at times can distort it.

Therefore, how very complicated our spirit friends must find it when they have to reproduce their voice by thought, and also through an artificially created voice box. They cannot be expected to reproduce their own voice exactly, though unfortunately some sitters do expect it.

Also, if a spirit has been on the other side for a number of years, they forget what their earth voice sounded like, that is, if they ever did know what it sounded like, as in the spirit world they communicate with each other by thought. I ask those of you listening to this - if you had never heard your own voice on a tape recorder, what it sounds like to other people, could you, by thought, reproduce your voice exactly?

Some direct voice mediums go into trance, but this particular medium does not do so, and is conscious the whole time. He often laughs or makes comments when we do. Also, when you listen to the tapes you may hear the spirit communicators breathing rather heavily as they try to get through. This is often the condition in which they were just before they passed from their earth life into the spirit world, and you may also hear them taking breaths between sentences.

Now, this business of breathing has puzzled some people a great deal, and it is a question that is often put to us.

First of all, you must remember that our friends on the other side are people, just as much as we are on this side. They are spirits and we are spirits here and now, but on a lower vibration.

The difference is this - when our Spirit friends are in their own environment, communication between each other is by thought, and when they make use of the voice box to communicate with us their vibrations have automatically been lowered to the earth’s conditions, such as breathing and taking breaths between sentences.

Perhaps we can explain this a little more clearly. One often carries on a lecture or a conversation with someone in one’s life. Now, without realizing it we are mentally taking breaths between sentences, and when we are able to use our normal vocal organs and speak our thoughts aloud, our breathing becomes apparent to others.

That is exactly what is going on with our spirit friends - they are communicating with us by thought, and when those thoughts are lowered to the earth’s vibrations and we can hear them as sound, their breathing becomes apparent to us.

The same idea applies to accents. A spirit communicator who had an accent whilst on earth - say for example, a Scots accent - when they vibrate back to earth conditions, this accent may be apparent because their memory has been drawn back to those conditions.

A spirit who, when on earth stuttered, has been known to stutter whilst communicating by direct voice. It is the same with people of different countries. They will come through speaking in their own language.

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Re: what now?

Post by Admin on Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:12 am

Hi Happy Healer,

Thanks for your thoughts, just to help us could you name the Spiritualist Church you are involved in because I am sure we would all like to know about it.

The concept of the Children is interesting, currently in the NSAC in your own country Rev Anne Gehman is a very great protagonist of the benefis of what is still known of the Childrens Lyceum. The UK SNU was also a great developer of the idea.

I would love to see a resurgence of this, sadly too often children, spirit and psychic = indigo children and their is enough evidence to disprove that conacept. What we do know is that children have more natural abilities than us BUT we must never push it to far so they can, with free will find their way.

Sadly I suspect that although our ages are not far apart you may regard many here (especially me) as curmudgeons whereas what I see are some of the vital sparks to bring change.

Jim
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Re: what now?

Post by mac on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:21 am

Reading through again: "My new circle of friends came into my life after my husband's passing and they continually tap into his vibration with clarity and truth. And from the platform, they continue to give me messages from my guides about things that nobody has been privy to."

What aspects of "clarity and truth" does this bring forth? What messages? Are these aspects which were not known from everyday teaching and learning?

Could you please enlarge on these issues? Smile

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Re: what now?

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:50 am

I taught dance for 25 years and I keenly observed children and their awareness of consciousness. The last 5 years of teaching brought me in touch with some wonderful students. Inexplicably, they related to me their experiences of Spirit - clairvoyance, clairaudiance, clairsentience. I was careful not to overstep the boundaries of my position while still assuring them that they were normal.

I was so fortunate to teach a class of 8-11 year olds who had an extraordinary group consciousness. Once a month I would play a game of Simon Says by using dance steps to help them associate terms with movement or poses. This particular class was too good and I could never get any of them "out" of the game. I decided to trick them. I said Simon Says arms second position yet in my mind I picture the arms in first position. Every single child placed their arms in first position. They did what I was thinking, not what I asked for. This happened several times.

I carried this experiment further without the children knowing what I was up to. When I sent the group to the corner in preparation for them to dance across the room, I had my back turned to them as I selected the music. I had not told them what particular movement they were to do but when I turned around they were all posed and ready to start the exercise of what I was thinking. Again, these kids were tapping into the images of my mind.

I began to notice other things. While they were doing their exercises and when I needed to correct a child's posture, if I started walking towards them from behind (not where they could see me coming) that child automatically corrected herself before I could touch her. This class accomplished more in that year than any other class of that age and technical ability that I have ever taught. They danced to a challenging piece of music and never once needed to look to me for cues when they performed. They also received a standing ovation, the first ever for any of my students over the years.

This area concerns me a little but the natural ability of Children is a well researched phenomena and totally normal. As you would know the Spiritualist movement on both Britain and the UK followed Andrew Jackson Davis's idea of the Childrens Lyceum. These lyceums flourished and reflected the natural talents while providing a safe environment for their development. Personally I do not believe we have a sudden magical conscious shift I believe the ability has always been there but it ca only be brought out in a safe environment. Running open development groups for people of all ages and experience I am well aware that all attendees have some psychic ability albeit repressed or ignored for life until now. It is a wonderful idea to involve Children but of course only when the Parents are aware and supportive as they are in a lyceum setting.

Jim
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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:04 am

To Zerdini,

Thank-you so much Z for the description of Independent Direct Voice. I have "experienced" that and Trumpet and trance. I continue to be dismayed at the demonstrations for a variety of reasons. It appears that in some cases that the medium's ego comes through too much when supposedly a spirit is doing the communication. "My husband" called me a name of endearment that he never called me in 26 years. I never felt the resonance or connection to or from the medium. I have departed the room before a session is demonstrated and afterward I am told by another participant that the medium's gatekeeper called my name and said my husband was there. Now how does that happen? Truthfully. Can't that gatekeeper see that I'm not in attendance?

IDV and DV with Trumpet sessions are always in the dark. I can't see what's going on. Recording devices and camera equipment are strictly forbidden. I am told to accept these sessions on faith and trust in the medium's ability. Yet in lectures I am told not to accept anything on blind faith. Har-rumph! This Spiritualist is skeptical of the hypocrisy. It seems that all of the photos and tape recordings of IDV and DV with Trumpet are from decades ago. Why is that? I would love to see the proof while attending a session.
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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:13 am

Dearest Mac,

I don't think you are negative at all. If you were American I would surmise that your kinfolk settled in the state of Missouri, the Show-Me State.

The examples I provided represent to me tangible evidence as I experienced them. In my training to be a teacher, it was required to create psychological profiles of all students and each class, as a whole. It is through this manner that I was able to notice changes in how children learned and perceived the world around them through the decades that I taught.

Jim mentioned the nurturing of children in Lyceums. (I never liked that word - it always sounded like a museum for lice. Someone did challenge me to find a more suitable word which I hope to do one day.) I wrote a speech once about the label of Indigo/Crustal/Rainbow/whatever children. It bothers me greatly to label children this way, separating them into a "special" group. I contend they are not a new or different breed of human, just more aware. And adults are more aware that the kids are more aware yet the few pushing the Indigo Children specialty are unaware how contentious this theory is. imho

Mac said "Firstly and secondly, I don't want anything for me. I would like for others nothing less than the standards once prevalent in churches and preferably much better." and "I just like Spiritualism as it can be at its simplest. "
I think that is what I'm really trying to understand here. What is your description of Spiritualism in simplest form? How do our communities differ? How do our churches differ in presentation? Perhaps this is the puzzle piece I'm missing as I am new to organized Spiritualism. And some of this struggle is between the purists and the Christian Spiritualists. In my own community I am aware that some mediums want too much Christianity in the church while others want no mention whatsoever of God or Jesus or Mary. Too few mediums continue to hone their ability to prove spirit communication while others rely on tools and psychic messaging and downright fraud.

Learning about Spiritualism emphasized to me that being skeptical is a must. We are very individualistic which can make it difficult to get things done in an organized manner.

Mac said "My new circle of friends came into my life after my husband's passing and they continually tap into his vibration with clarity and truth. And from the platform, they continue to give me messages from my guides about things that nobody has been privy to."

What aspects of "clarity and truth" does this bring forth? What messages? Are these aspects which were not known from everyday teaching and learning?

Could you please enlarge on these issues?"
What I meant by this is that my friends did not know my husband. They still know very little about him or our relationship. If I want to receive unbiased messages the medium should not be prompted or fed knowledge. This can be difficult as I hang out with my friends while knowing they will be on platform at any time. Each one has been able to deliver messages to me that are clear and truthful from his personality. They tap into his humor and speech pattern, even mispronouncing certain words as he would.

One woman delivered a line from from his favorite movie that he would say all the time. I almost had it inscribed on his gravestone. One friend described my nightly meditation, a certain guide's name and things I prayed for that have never been spoken to anybody, things I ask this guide to help me manifest in my life and gave me her answer. These messages have been more truthful and precise from my circle of new friends while the other mediums tend to recycle old messages for me.

Oh, nearly forgot about elementals. Woodland creatures, brownies, faeries, gnomes, satyrs. I can't see those creatures. I don't deny their existence nor do I promote them. They just don't matter that much to me in the grand scheme of things. If others do, I'm happy for them.

The Laws I referred to, Mac, are parts of Natural Law which goes hand in hand with Spiritualism. Spirit is vibration. Sound is vibration. Everything in this Universe is in motion or vibrating. The rate of vibration determines its nature. Everything vibrates at its natural frequency. The Spirit World vibrates at a high frequency. As an entity lowers its vibration it materializes in the physical plane. If this one Law demonstrates Spiritualism, then all Natural Laws would apply.

The Law of Thought and Manifestation states that thoughts are things, energy follows thought. What you choose, you create. What you recognize in thought, you energize. What you energize, you actualize. Man has an idea, he thinks of an object and then he builds a table. Thought-->energy-->manifest. And the table is vibrating, just at a much lower frequency.

The Laws of Change and Progression or Evolution.....we're talking cycles, constant change, progressing or constant unfoldment of all beings. I believe this applies to Spiritualists. Do Spiritualists not believe in eternal life and reincarnation? What's the point of continuous incarnations if one does not intend to work on spiritual progression? And that opens another digression with the Law of Karma and the Law of Cause and Effect.

I am taught that those in the Spirit World are also learning and progressing, even our spirit guides. Isn't that the point of spirit guides? They help us gain spiritual understanding and aid in unfolding our mediumistic talents and abilities. AND by helping us it helps them on their own spiritual progression. And how do we acquire those spirit guides? Through the Law of Attraction: like attracts like. Things of like vibration are attracted to each other.

As above, so below; as below, so above - which, incidentally, is the Law of Correspondence. Nothing in this Universe exists separately or in isolation. All things existing in all planes - seen or unseen - exist in harmony with the One.

Mercy! I believe I got on a roll with Natural Law. I didn't understand it so much when I first started learning it but now I see that Spiritualism couldn't exist without it. And didn't the Master Healer Jesus teach Natural Law?
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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:17 am

Oh, dear, Jim.
Yipes! I was trying hard to reassure this forum that I was not referring to any member here that I considered them to be a curmudgeon. My statements were about the people I encounter IRL, In Real Life, as opposed to those I encounter on the Internet.

I'm trying my best to reach across time zones and cultures to understand the similarities and differences in Spiritualism. I believe it was Wes who lamented in another thread in Chat category about the state of Spiritualism in his area. Mac has thrown out the question "what now?" It appears we are all concerned about the condition of Spiritualism and finding solutions.

I hope you won't be too offended if I not state where my community is. I'm not comfortable revealing that information, especially on an open forum. I am still adjusting to life without my husband. I have also encountered problems with an Internet stalker. Things have been quiet for the past 10 months and I intend to keep it that way. For 3 years I have posted exclusively on private forums. This is the first open forum I've returned to (other than twittering).

G'night all and have a blessed day, wherever you may be.
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Re: what now?

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:30 am

Hi Happy Healer,

That makes good sense to me. I am interested in the comments about Dv, trumpets and trance. You are in good company with your concerns. I know within the NSAC in the USA they have seperated themselves from any involvement with Dark Seances. The most they support is transfiguration, trumpets and table tipping in the dim light. even then tables tipping and trumpets are as likely to be telekenesis and unless the transfiguration is startlingly good it is open to interpretation.

However the evening of transfiguration and table tipping Rev Anne gehman gave at our Mission was impressive and great fun.

However I do know Camp Chesterfield continues its traditions despite the disclosures of Lamar Keen and the revelations in the Psychic Observer after the weekend of infra red photography in the USA (discussed in seperate threads on here). I have heard little more about the type of work trance, trumpets independent voice you comment on in the USA.

As to the differences I suspect that on the whole if you went into an NSAC church and an SNU one they would be similar. One center here follows that approach. Ours is similar being, like them, non Christian in format but we do not sing hymns. We do play nice meditation music and when appropriate inspiring songs if appropriate ones can be found.

We follow the seven principles and try and ensure we present Spiritualsim in a way that engages the mind but is fun. Our Sunday meeting starts with a prayer to Spirit, Healing meditation hands on Healing, address and demonstration of clairvoyance .

Clearly my wife and I have a great interest in teh History and teh Philosophy as well as both being Proof of Survival mediums, Healers and facilitators of development groups.

My experience with people from the UK and USA is that usually our similarities are closer than our differences. However that can vary when a centre has become excessively "Spiritual" not Spiritualist and encompassing all kinds of ideas or excessively Christian with strong overtones of Jesus still as a Special one and Saviour.

Jim
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Re: what now?

Post by obiwan on Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:29 am

I would have thought (in my ignorance) that the question with IDV is the nature of the personal evidence? If that is the case what does it matter that it is in the dark? I can't see people on the phone when I talk to them but that doesn't stop me correctly identifying who I am talking to - even if I have to ask a few questions to confirm identify.

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Re: what now?

Post by zerdini on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:01 am

Happy Healer wrote:To Zerdini,

Thank-you so much Z for the description of Independent Direct Voice. I have "experienced" that and Trumpet and trance. I continue to be dismayed at the demonstrations for a variety of reasons. It appears that in some cases that the medium's ego comes through too much when supposedly a spirit is doing the communication. "My husband" called me a name of endearment that he never called me in 26 years. I never felt the resonance or connection to or from the medium. I have departed the room before a session is demonstrated and afterward I am told by another participant that the medium's gatekeeper called my name and said my husband was there. Now how does that happen? Truthfully. Can't that gatekeeper see that I'm not in attendance?

IDV and DV with Trumpet sessions are always in the dark. I can't see what's going on. Recording devices and camera equipment are strictly forbidden. I am told to accept these sessions on faith and trust in the medium's ability. Yet in lectures I am told not to accept anything on blind faith. Har-rumph! This Spiritualist is skeptical of the hypocrisy. It seems that all of the photos and tape recordings of IDV and DV with Trumpet are from decades ago. Why is that? I would love to see the proof while attending a session.

Hi HH

I sat with a group eight people on a regular basis with Leslie Flint for ten years and we all received personal evidence. After we had all received our personal evidence we asked wide-ranging questions on every aspect of Spiritualism including life in the Spirit World and received intelligent replies. My experiences do not appear to bear any resemblance to the ones you attended as we were all allowed to tape-record the seances.

I recommend you read "Voices in the Dark" by Leslie Flint who often demonstrated in the USA.

He passed to the Spirit World in 1994 and I have often heard from him since his passing.

Kind regards

Zerdini

zerdini


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Re: what now?

Post by mac on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:43 am

quote “What I meant by this is that my friends did not know my husband. They still know very little about him or our relationship. If I want to receive unbiased messages the medium shoul..................that have never been spoken to anybody, things I ask this guide to help me manifest in my life and gave me her answer. These messages have been more truthful and precise from my circle of new friends while the other mediums tend to recycle old messages for me.

Oh, nearly forgot about elementals. Woodland creatures, brownies, faeries, gnomes, satyrs. I can't see those creatures. I don't deny their existence nor do I promote them. They just don't matter that much to me in the grand scheme of things. If others do, I'm happy for them.”



OK, HH, I now follow your meaning. I’m going to stick my head out now and hope it doesn’t get chopped off. You mention a number of issues which have me wondering just how much is mediumship, how much is not. I hate to be a wet blanket but have you ensured that the information gleaned by your friends is coming directly from your husband and not from you? Not always, perhaps, but at times? Would it not be the case that those close to you would also be very 'sensitised' to you and that not all personal details may be originating from your husband? I raise that as an issue from personal experience.

As for the issue of elementals, well I’m at a loss to understand how these relate to the Spiritualism I’m familiar with. I do understand what elementals signify to others incidentally. I don’t want to sound unkind but I’ve had regular debate and discussion about such matters elsewhere. The outcomes weren’t positive and left me with continuing uncertainty about those for who they are important.


quote "The Laws I referred to, Mac, are parts of Natural Law which goes hand in hand with Spiritualism. Spirit is vibration. Sound is vibration. Everything in this Universe is in motion or vibrating. The rate of vibration determines its nature. Everything vibrates at its natural frequency. The Spirit World vibrates at a.........................e spirit guides? Through the Law of Attraction: like attracts like. Things of like vibration are attracted to each other.

As above, so below; as below, so above - which, incidentally, is the Law of Correspondence. Nothing in this Universe exists separately or in isolation. All things existing in all planes - seen or unseen - exist in harmony with the One."



I’m sorry to be negative again but the above so-called laws have passed me by in my learning. I fully understand the science but when did these 'laws' become part of Spiritualism? Perhaps I’ve been reading the wrong teachings but other than the law of cause and effect, I can’t recall any of them. You mention “As an entity lowers its vibration it materializes in the physical plane. If this one Law demonstrates Spiritualism, then all Natural Laws would apply.” The first premise is inaccurate and all natural laws stand on their own merit – none is dependent on another.

The aspects of so-called guides is one which has been frequently discussed. Definitions vary widely. Isn't a 'guide' simply a willing helper, a ‘guardian angel’ as some like to call them? Or do you mean a guide who is an evolved entity who knows the best path for the majority – like a Sherpa on Everest for example. These guides learn from others and from their own experiences the most suitable ways for the majority of the climbers they lead. Is such a role that of a spiritual guide? Or is there an implication that each and every one of us is accompanied by a specialised guide whose attributes are such that (s)he already knows the most suitable, personal spiritual path for each of us individually? If this is so, then my understanding is flawed.

You ask about reincarnation, an issue over which there is confusion within Spiritualism. It’s something which has often been a subject for deep discussion, often without a clear outcome. Again it comes down to definition and the impact of other religions, their notion of ‘karma’ for example, is now evident in such discussions.

You ask “What is your description of Spiritualism in simplest form? How do our communities differ? How do our churches differ in presentation? Perhaps this is the puzzle piece I'm missing as I am new to organized Spiritualism.” On this, the essence of Spiritualism, our survival beyond death and evidence through mediumistic communication, it is so straightforward I can’t think what else to add. Any differences in communities or church presentation will range from insignificant to fundamental, according to the understanding and behaviours of those who run them. Given an equal understanding of the philosophy and teachings of Spiritualism, differences should be superficial. If they are not one might wish to examine why.

Christian Spiritualist churches are an odd hybrid, apparently seeking to incorporate traditional Christian values and trappings. They appeal to those they appeal to… As to whether they are they consistent with simple, Spiritualistic values you’ll have to judge for yourself.

I’ll leave it at that for now and hope that I don’t seem wholly negative. Those who know something of me know that I ask more questions than I give answers.

Please don’t mistake that for cynicism, scepticism or uncertainty… Wink

mac


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Re: what now?

Post by obiwan on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:00 pm

mac wrote:
Please don’t mistake that for cynicism, scepticism or uncertainty… Wink
Quite! That's my job. Smile

obiwan


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Re: what now?

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:31 pm

Thats OK we need one on here at least Very Happy
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Re: what now?

Post by obiwan on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:39 pm

Three for the price of one here.

obiwan


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Re: what now?

Post by Admin on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:50 pm

lol

By the way Mac the concept of Natural Law is a well accepted part of teh NSAC's approach to Spiritualism. It is imported from Andrew Jackson Davis's Harmonial Philosophy. Like you in the UK it is a lot less of a feature but it forms a major part of the NSAC's study program in their Morris Pratt College's correspondence courses. My great US friend Rev Marilyn Awtry wrote one half of the original Course although that has now been revised. Last year she published a book called The River of Life about the Natural laws..The cost of a single book freight stopped me from buying a copy but you can get an idea of it here.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=d4wk-eBSJSoC&dq=river+of+life+awtry&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=TtAB-yx832&sig=WATWEegBg51vAlal77xY6c8C1qA&hl=en&ei=FxvNSozxLNDIkAXCmbDvBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Jim
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Re: what now?

Post by mac on Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:23 am

Admin wrote:lol

By the way Mac the concept of Natural Law is a well accepted part of teh NSAC's approach to Spiritualism. It is imported from Andrew Jackson Davis's Harmonial Philosophy. Like you in the UK it is a lot less of a feature but it forms a major part of the NSAC's study program in their Morris Pratt College's correspondence courses. My great US friend Rev Marilyn Awtry wrote one half of the original Course although that has now been revised. Last year she published a book called The River of Life about the Natural laws..The cost of a single book freight stopped me from buying a copy but you can get an idea of it here.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=d4wk-eBSJSoC&dq=river+of+life+awtry&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=TtAB-yx832&sig=WATWEegBg51vAlal77xY6c8C1qA&hl=en&ei=FxvNSozxLNDIkAXCmbDvBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Jim

thanks for this, Jim.



Not heard of much in UK Spiritualism then... wonder why?

Would it - do you think - improve my overall understanding of the subjects we discuss in this, and other, Spiritualism-based forums?

If so I could order a copy for delivery in the winter when we get back there....

mac

mac


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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:32 pm

obiwan wrote:I would have thought (in my ignorance) that the question with IDV is the nature of the personal evidence? If that is the case what does it matter that it is in the dark? I can't see people on the phone when I talk to them but that doesn't stop me correctly identifying who I am talking to - even if I have to ask a few questions to confirm identify.


Hi, Obi,

I hear what you're saying about IDV. Regardless of the method used to communicate spirit messages to me, if my red flags go up I must use discernment to confirm the validity of both the medium and the spirit. I trust what resonates within me.
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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:38 pm

[quote="zerdini

Hi HH

I sat with a group eight people on a regular basis with Leslie Flint for ten years and we all received personal evidence. After we had all received our personal evidence we asked wide-ranging questions on every aspect of Spiritualism including life in the Spirit World and received intelligent replies. My experiences do not appear to bear any resemblance to the ones you attended as we were all allowed to tape-record the seances.

I recommend you read "Voices in the Dark" by Leslie Flint who often demonstrated in the USA.

He passed to the Spirit World in 1994 and I have often heard from him since his passing.

Kind regards

Zerdini[/quote]


Big thanks, Z,

I went to the site posted and found him quite interesting. You are so fortunate to have experienced such communication from an accomplished medium. Are there any such gifted mediums around these days? And are there any mediums in training who are about to achieve such status?

Bottom line, I believe that Spiritualism would flourish if more seances and readings were allowed to be recorded, audio and visual taping. Again, I don't like being told that I must have faith and trust in the medium and then tell me to be skeptical about what I hear or learn in Spiritualism.
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Re: what now?

Post by obiwan on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:41 pm

Happy Healer wrote:
obiwan wrote:I would have thought (in my ignorance) that the question with IDV is the nature of the personal evidence? If that is the case what does it matter that it is in the dark? I can't see people on the phone when I talk to them but that doesn't stop me correctly identifying who I am talking to - even if I have to ask a few questions to confirm identify.


Hi, Obi,

I hear what you're saying about IDV. Regardless of the method used to communicate spirit messages to me, if my red flags go up I must use discernment to confirm the validity of both the medium and the spirit. I trust what resonates within me.
You may of course apply whatever criteria suits you.

obiwan


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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:44 pm

Hi howdy, Mac,

Never fear- I'm not contrary. That's a southern(USA) colloquialism meaning that I'm not easily offended or put out or apt to have my feathers ruffled because we may be in disagreement.

All learning begins with a question. IMO, the fact that you ask more questions than you have answers means that you care. You simply care enough to go on a fact finding mission.

...all natural laws stand on their own merit – none is dependent on another.


Can't agree with that. Some may stand alone but many are interconnected.

I agree the descriptions of guides vary widely. In my experience, that creates a lot of confusion for the novice. I know what guides surround me. I don't much care for somebody who describes a guide for me and it simply does not resonate. Again, I'm not contrary. If the medium sees that entity and I don't, then no matter. I simply let it slide off and carry on my way. If the description resonates, I'll take it under consideration. If we see the same entity at the same time or I strongly feel the presence, it's a homerun. However, NOBODY should be told that "this is your guide, these are your guides, end of story". That is when I cease to be contrary.

As for my husband, when he made his transition at home I prayed for his quick return to spirit, released from any karmic debt we had together, with hopes that he wouldn't be bound to the physical plane for any length of time. Some folks go to the funeral and want to hear from their spouse immediately. I didn't. When I went to church, I didn't want any medium to give me a "pity message" from him. I knew there was much healing to be done. In fact, the first messages I got were from his kinfolk thanking me for deeds I had done that nobody ever knew about. It was almost 2 months before messages began to come from him and they were truthful in their content as they were unlike ANY other messages other widowed parishioners had gotten that I observed.

It may not seem that you're providing me with any answers to my questions but I'm starting to see more clearly now. I thank you so much for your replies. Mac, you said you went to the States for 3 months. Do you have an account or blog anywhere that you describe where you went and what you did in regards to Spiritualist endeavors?
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Re: what now?

Post by Happy Healer on Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:11 pm

Admin wrote:Hi Happy Healer,

That makes good sense to me. I am interested in the comments about Dv, trumpets and trance. You are in good company with your concerns. I know within the NSAC in the USA they have seperated themselves from any involvement with Dark Seances. The most they support is transfiguration, trumpets and table tipping in the dim light. even then tables tipping and trumpets are as likely to be telekenesis and unless the transfiguration is startlingly good it is open to interpretation.

However the evening of transfiguration and table tipping Rev Anne gehman gave at our Mission was impressive and great fun.

However I do know Camp Chesterfield continues its traditions despite the disclosures of Lamar Keen and the revelations in the Psychic Observer after the weekend of infra red photography in the USA (discussed in seperate threads on here). I have heard little more about the type of work trance, trumpets independent voice you comment on in the USA.

As to the differences I suspect that on the whole if you went into an NSAC church and an SNU one they would be similar. One center here follows that approach. Ours is similar being, like them, non Christian in format but we do not sing hymns. We do play nice meditation music and when appropriate inspiring songs if appropriate ones can be found.

We follow the seven principles and try and ensure we present Spiritualsim in a way that engages the mind but is fun. Our Sunday meeting starts with a prayer to Spirit, Healing meditation hands on Healing, address and demonstration of clairvoyance .

Clearly my wife and I have a great interest in teh History and teh Philosophy as well as both being Proof of Survival mediums, Healers and facilitators of development groups.

My experience with people from the UK and USA is that usually our similarities are closer than our differences. However that can vary when a centre has become excessively "Spiritual" not Spiritualist and encompassing all kinds of ideas or excessively Christian with strong overtones of Jesus still as a Special one and Saviour.

Jim

Hi, Jim,

Thanks for your posts and references. I'm starting to see the differences and similarities in Spiritualism around the world. I've seen transfiguration several times and it's pretty cool. Have not experienced table tipping but heard stories about it. I am aware of NSAC but was not trained under their specific cirriculum. However I was taught that there are two distinctions in Spiritualism.

1)A Spiritualist is one who believes, as the basis of his or her religion, in the communication between this and the Spirit World by means of mediumship and who endeavors to mold his or her character and conduct in accordance with the highest teachings derived from such communication.

2) A Spiritist is one who is more interested in phenomena and spirit communication than they are in practicing Spiritualism as a religion.

Maybe I am not perceiving this clearly, but some posts indicate to me that members here fall into either one of these categories.

I believe our 8th principle - We affirm that the doorway to reformation is never closed against any soul here or hereafter - prevents excessively Christian overtones of Jesus still as a Special one and Saviour. However, Jesus is referred to the Christed One and emphasis is givent to his healing abilities.

I never thought I would go into spiritual healing but once I experienced hands on, I never looked back. It was the biggest high I've gotten since performing on stage.

One day I hope to have the means to travel abroad again. I definitely want to see more of the UK plus hit all those Spiritualist centers. Australia has always been on my list of places to go. The closest I ever got was Madagascar. Or India, if it's closer? Should I make that long voyage I'll bring you whatever books you desire. cheers

Have a great and blessed day.
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