Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Admin on Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:13 am

Hi Inge,

I take it you are doing all of this within the new rules of Truth in Physical Mediumship not dark circles with no infra red so we have to believe again not see the truth. I look forward to seeing the properly evaluated and validated results.
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:28 pm

Inge wrote:We are creating seance reports and developing circle reports pages on the website, including a page for passed on ideas and explanations from different spirit teams, so eventually, you might be able to have a broader picture of what is going on. Thanks for your comment.  

Will reports indicate which mediums sat with which groups? And will sittings be conducted wholly in the dark as Jim just asked? I'm sure you appreciate why such details are important.

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Inge on Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:14 pm

I was asked by those who do the work (the different spirit teams) to only present the outcomes/evidence exactly as they are presented to us ( successful or unsuccessful experiments) and the education as it is given for every circle here, and I will follow that request. Names not to be mentioned.

Inge


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Admin on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:13 am

Hi Inge,

Are these sittings being recorded by infra red filming in accordance with teh new protocols? Or do we have to accept what we atre told by the participants? It has vbecome quite clear how easily people attending dark seances can be misled and even what occurs even with some element of light have proven to be unreliable or staged.

At this stage it does seem Wallacia is determined to stick by the old and now pretty discredited empirical conrtols. Maybe you could comment about the improvements you have implemented? I also question when Spirit tell us to do things who are these Spirit Controls?

Spirit should be willing to give us this detail because they have always encouraged discernment and testing the Spirits. The problems around all of the presumed ascencion events that never ocurred are repeatedly tied up with a lack of adequate validation of the so called Spirit communicators and too an intense involvement of the sub conscious and teh personal wants of eeh message recipients. Equally many of teh most problematic of recent apparent faruds in PM have been sheeted down to some nebulous Spirt Team..It seems logical to me (and from my experience with my guides in running groups, teaching and moving tables) if it was a wise and caring Spirit Team it would never place a medium in such a terrible situation.
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:08 am

Maybe it's just me but I'm not going to change my approach.  It feels wrong to me to refer to discarnate communicators as 'spirit' as if those communicators are a homogenous bunch, all at very similar personal levels of spiritual progression.

Discarnate communicators are all individuals at varying levels of spiritual evolvement.  They are likely to have varying levels of understanding of any subject just as we incarnates have varying levels of understanding. Logically some 'spirit teams' will contain members more - or less - competent at whatever role they perform than members in other spirit teams.

When these spirit teams impose on their incarnate counterparts conditions they know - or surely should know - will lead to controversey, what should we make of their overall competence?  And after a century and a half of communications that can be lumped under the general heading of 'spiritualism' - leading to the emergence of the movement and philosophy of Modern Spiritualism -  why do we still fall out with one another about a concept so dated as the production of physical phenomena via physical mediumship?  Especially so given that physical mediumship in full light was demonstrated decades ago?  

Physical mediumship - or just phenomenalism - carried out in the dark, where nothing can be seen by the attending sitters, is the equivalent of re-inventing the wheel. It's already been done.

mac


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Inge on Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:38 am

Interesting question obiwan "So is it Gary Mannion?" Is this how people evaluate evidence by who the medium is? If the protocol is sound and the evidence was observed by 20 sitters in complete bright light throughout, why would that question arise. it was one of the 6 mediums demonstrating here and Gary is one of them.

Inge


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:24 pm

Inge wrote:Interesting question obiwan "So is it Gary Mannion?" Is this how people evaluate evidence by who the medium is?

My very good duck friend will answer for himself but as an uninvolved, but interested and marginally knowledgeable individual I have a few thoughts to offer.  

In answer to your first question, partly. Is there a reason one shouldn't consider who the medium was?  You surely haven't forgotten the international brouhaha not so very long ago?  We Spiritualists haven't and neither has obi.


Inge wrote: If the protocol is sound and the evidence was observed by 20 sitters in complete bright light throughout, why would that question arise. it was one of the 6 mediums demonstrating here and Gary is one of them.


If the protocol was sound, if the phenomena were observed in bright light, the question about the medium(s) involved would have less importance in one respect but might still be asked and the answer would be very interesting  

So are you saying the protocols were sound and that phenomena were observed in good light and that mediums other than Mannion demonstrated them?  If so I feel confident our concerns will be found unnecessary and perhaps undeserved - fair enough?

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Inge on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:56 pm

Thanks for your thoughts mac. Yes, I am saying that our protocols are very sound, maybe check them out on our website. The phenomena was observed in very good lightened conditions throughout the sitting and one of our 6 talented mediums demonstrated. If evidence is judged by the name of a medium and not the information/phenomena presented, what is the point? I believe the so-called 'experts' on these sites don't have to worry much longer how to discredit a physical medium, as most physical mediums left or moved back to home circles and this is a very good thing. To attend a seance as a sitter will be nearly impossible. My way of sitting in a seance where I don't understand something, is to ask the spirit people what is going on? show me different? how is it done? As we truly don't know what is possible. It has served me well. I do not post to prove something, just to share what is possible and what we have experienced here since everyone seems to scream for lightened conditions. Everyone has the right to an opinion or belief system and I just chose to build mine on personal experience and investigation and not hearsay. Just another way to learn, I guess.

Inge


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:37 pm

Inge wrote:Thanks for your thoughts mac. Yes, I am saying that our protocols are very sound, maybe check them out on our website.  

I'm comfortable in accepting the word of those involved and don't need to check the protocols out.  I'm a simple soul and approach matters by assuming that everyone knows everything that's been done before and isn't gullible.  If anyone is dishonest in what they do they run the risk of being caught out quite quickly and that's the beauty of a lit seance room because fraud is less easy to perpetrate.  

Inge wrote:The phenomena was observed in very good lightened conditions throughout the sitting and one of our 6 talented mediums demonstrated.

fine

Inge wrote:If evidence is judged by the name of a medium and not the information/phenomena presented, what is the point?

I am certain that I don't need to go over what happened some months ago and folk haven't forgotten.  Where fraud is perpetrated a practitioner would have much do do to re-establish her/his credibility.  Would you wish it otherwise?


Inge wrote:I believe the so-called 'experts' on these sites don't have to worry much longer how to discredit a physical medium, as most physical mediums left or moved back to home circles and this is a very good thing.
 

As I see matters those who aren't honest have discredited themselves when they are found out.  They can't be discredited if their actions are honest.  Where reputable physical mediums choose to demonstrate has always been a matter of personal choice.  Home circles are just fine by me.


Inge wrote:To attend a seance as a sitter will be nearly impossible. My way of sitting in a seance where I don't understand something, is to ask the spirit people what is going on? show me different? how is it done? As we truly don't know what is possible. It has served me well. I do not post to prove something, just to share what is possible and what we have experienced here since everyone seems to scream for lightened conditions. Everyone has the right to an opinion or belief system and I just chose to build mine on personal experience and investigation and not hearsay. Just another way to learn, I guess.

Attending demonstrations of physical mediumship has never been easy.  With (apparently) as few physical mediums now as there ever was (or fewer) ordinary Joes like me can't reasonably expect to witness such mediumship.  It's not important to me, however, because I have no need for persuasion about survival but I do wonder if some seekers go to experience - maybe even see - physical phenomena rather than experiencing actual mediumship.  That's another issue and one I've often commented on.

On a personal level I'm not interested in phenomena unless they're used to demonstrate the message of survival.  If they are then I don't care who produces them or how they do it or even what their motivation is in doing it.

mac


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by obiwan on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:38 pm

Inge wrote:Interesting question obiwan "So is it Gary Mannion?" Is this how people evaluate evidence by who the medium is? If the protocol is sound and the evidence was observed by 20 sitters in complete bright light throughout, why would that question arise. it was one of the 6 mediums demonstrating here and Gary is one of them.
I don't understand what the problem is when I ask if it is Gary Mannion. Perhaps you'd explain? If, as you say, Gary Mannion  was one of the mediums, do you think he has been shown to be fraudulent?

I think it does matter who the medium is, particularly if a medium has been shown to be fraudulent. This doesn't necessarily mean all such mediums' demonstrations are fraudulent, but it  would be a rather credulous person who simply accepted reports without any supporting evidence, about someone who was shown to have demonstrated fraudulent activity wouldn't it?

The difficulty with falling back on the number of sitters and the protocols, and the degree of adherence to them, is that we are dependent on the reliability, judgement and bona fides of the sitters reporting the phenomena. Who are the sitters that we should accept their evidence as being reliable? For instance, one might ask  "are they the same people who were duped at a seance that was subsequently shown to be fraudulent?". I don't think that's an unreasonable line of enquiry.

I can understand that this could be frustrating for people who have witnessed genuine phenomena, however I wouldn't expect anyone to accept my own experiences of phenomena as being of any evidential value, unless they knew me or I could provide corroboration by another reliable witness or source.

If you think my perspective is unreasonable, I am more than happy to be corrected.

As for the "so-called experts" as you refer to them, they're doing you a favour. If you can provide supporting evidence to  show the phenomena you are talking about are real, and are  evidence of survival, then you are being encouraged to provide it. If you can't, then perhaps it would be wiser to wait until you can if you don't like being asked questions about it.

obiwan


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Admin on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:53 am

Excellent answer Obi, it has come to my mind that we may not be dealing with Inge but with Gary himself. I could ask around her to find out more about who is actually involved at Wallacia.
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Left Behind on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:54 am

Inge, are you now or have you ever been Gary Mannion Razz

Even if Inge is legit, and regardless of what protocols or controls were used: given Mannion's track record, a person would have to be very foolish indeed, NOT to be suspicious wherever he's involved, or suspected of being.

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Admin on Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:11 am

Very True LB regardless. Its especially so as we are now aware that no Physical Medium is producing valid phenomena, of the type claimed above by "Inge", under the new protocols, in light or infra red filming, at other centres around the world. Wallacia is unique; 6 mediums producing valid phenomena, quite a claim! By the way I am eradicating Kai Muegge from the mix of people outside Wallacia because the record indicated that a lot of his purportedly genuine material was in light (hmm the separate thread on here tells that story).

Interesting as well because we had, with nothing we could print, a statement from other mediums (physical mediums quite well known) of a list of those who were strongly suspected of not being genuine; Garrys was foremost although it was a decent list of names. However, I bet the own names of those claiming this could well be on the lists of other mediums.
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:44 am

I hope that Inge will respond to the points made.

 It seemed important for her to post here on Spiritualism Link in the first place and I hope she'll see it's important to respond to all the points made by our analytical and sceptical members.  The situation in Wallacia is unique and the centre has made bold claims about their physical groups.  

If there's sound evidence of all that's been claimed, why would anyone coming here specially to speak about it not go on to provide the evidence?

mac


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Slatewriter on Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:37 am

Admin wrote:Interesting as well because we had, with nothing we could print, a statement from other mediums (physical mediums quite well known) of a list of those who were strongly suspected of not being genuine; Garrys was foremost although it was a decent list of names. However, I bet the own names of those claiming this could well be on the lists of other mediums.

Is there such a statement or list, available for review ?

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by obiwan on Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:52 pm

mac wrote:

If there's sound evidence of all that's been claimed, why would anyone coming here specially to speak about it not go on to provide the evidence?
Well quite.

obiwan


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Admin on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:42 am

Unfortunately no Slatewriter this could only be done with evidence not from any unsubstantiated comments, however, interesting they could be. The only evidence against physical mediums, available as of now, are the things we have either mentioned or put up on the forum to date. The silence about the lack of any seances which are being carried out under the new protocols speaks loudly for itself.


Last edited by Admin on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Left Behind on Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:49 am

Admin wrote:Unfortunately no Slatewriter this could only be done with evidence not from any unsubstantiated comments, however interesting they could be. The only evidence against physical mediums, available as of now, are the things we have either mentioned or put up on here to date. The silence about the lack of any seances which are being carried out under the new protocols speaks loudly for itself.

Very interesting observation, Jim Shocked

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Inge on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:16 am

I will post what I experience (if that is not welcome here, I won't) to allow interested people to read what some mediums and their teams working towards or achieved. I read a lot of accusations towards physical mediums here, which could have been avoided if sitters would just ask, the team working in a seance, for evidence instead of blaming the medium afterwards.
If you ask spirit working to show you phenomena differently to dispel your doubts and not get a reaction or action, then maybe question the medium's mind or form interference. Otherwise, your opinion is just that, an opinion. For example, David's shoe seems to be a big topic here. Did someone ask William to feel the shoe to determine if it was the mediums or asked if they used the mediums form for this and why or did they do this to provoke thought and questions? We need to learn and not assume that we know, without investigation and questioning I believe.
Do I have footage to show you from the fully lightened condition seance? No, I don't, but happy to provide it when some are available in the future. Sorry, we can't be more obliging to your requests right now. The full transcript of the audio will be available and all the sitters are happy to write their experiences if requested.
To clarify my point about our 6 circles and the seance report - I was stating it could be one of 6 mediums sitting here, I am not saying that all 6 medium's are producing the same phenomena. I am glad you think Wallacia is unique Smile, but we simply a centre for circles to sit and develop to their highest potential, where spirit teams are questioned and many experiments take place - not all successful. The seance reports we publish, are from private demonstrations that had independent sitters from around Australia, not the local neighbourhood. I am not sure exactly what evidence, except video recordings, you talk about would satisfy you? Inge

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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:07 am

Inge wrote:I will post what I experience (if that is not welcome here, I won't) to allow interested people to read what some mediums and their teams working towards or achieved. I read a lot of accusations towards physical mediums here, which could have been avoided if sitters would just ask, the team working in a seance, for evidence instead of blaming the medium afterwards.
If you ask spirit working to show you phenomena differently to dispel your doubts and not get a reaction or action, then maybe question the medium's mind or form interference. Otherwise, your opinion is just that, an opinion. For example, David's shoe seems to be a big topic here. Did someone ask William to feel the shoe to determine if it was the mediums or asked if they used the mediums form for this and why or did they do this to provoke thought and questions? We need to learn and not assume that we know, without investigation and questioning I believe.
Do I have footage to show you from the fully lightened condition seance? No, I don't, but happy to provide it when some are available in the future. Sorry, we can't be more obliging to your requests right now. The full transcript of the audio will be available and all the sitters are happy to write their experiences if requested.
To clarify my point about our 6 circles and the seance report - I was stating it could be one of 6 mediums sitting here, I am not saying that all 6 medium's are producing the same phenomena. I am glad you think Wallacia is unique Smile, but we simply a centre for circles to sit and develop to their highest potential, where spirit teams are questioned and many experiments take place - not all successful. The seance reports we publish, are from private demonstrations that had independent sitters from around Australia, not the local neighbourhood. I am not sure exactly what evidence, except video recordings, you talk about would satisfy you? Inge

Whatever is claimed for whomever, by whomever, surely you guys must now realise there's a need to produce clear evidence of what you report?  If you don't you'll again face criticism and maybe accusation of fraud.  The nature of the evidence is for you to decide.

This is not my website but Spiritualism Link has the mission statement of a "Forum for Spiritualists and those interested in learning more about the Religion, Philosophy, Science and Truth of the Spiritualist Movement".  It's not primarily a website for posting reports about phenomenalism or physical mediumship whereas PM4U is.  There's also 'physical mediumship forum' and naturally both are dedicated to physical mediumship.  The former may be more sympathetic to your reports, the latter I suspect not.

 Here's what I wrote earlier in the thread: "On a personal level I'm not interested in phenomena unless they're used to demonstrate the message of survival.  If they are then I don't care who produces them or how they do it or even what their motivation is in doing it."  

Beyond that I am interested in reading about what you guys in Wallacia are doing and I am also interested in hearing about what any other groups or organisations are doing. BUT I always expect persuasive evidence about what's being claimed and assess it based on what I learned from my time in the Noah's Ark Society.


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by Admin on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:41 am

Inge wrote:
If you ask spirit working to show you phenomena differently to dispel your doubts and not get a reaction or action, then maybe question the medium's mind or form interference. Otherwise, your opinion is just that, an opinion. For example, David's shoe seems to be a big topic here. Did someone ask William to feel the shoe to determine if it was the mediums or asked if they used the mediums form for this and why or did they do this to provoke thought and questions? We need to learn and not assume that we know, without investigation and questioning I believe.


Good points you have made Mac.

In addition Inge expects us to accept the medium's "Spirit Team or Guides"as a valid interpretaion as what is going on in a circle or capable of explaining any or all anomalies,e.g. citing the shoes in an example from David. Yet we know that William is not who he (or David) said they are, indeed by apporting a sewing kit of the non existent William's Mother, in Saratosa Florida, one or other of the medium or his guide was acting in an erroneous manner.

Q.E.D the evidence purportedly given by a Spirit Guide to justify events that took place, also usually provided by the claimed medium, has to be regarded in a very critical manner. This is an entirely unsatisfactory "proof" for the circle phenomena. Indeed it becomes effectively useless because the true existence of a Spirit Guide is almost impossible to prove lacking valid evidence (remember that the guide could well be the rambling of the mediums own sub concious in an altered state or deliberate deception).

This topic is about Truth in Physical mediumship and the adoption valid protocols to ensure that this occurs. This was a response to the many problems occuring within physical mediumship but driven particularly by Banyan Retreats film of Gary Mannion's exploits. The only thing being used to support Gary are the words from his Spirit Team, which firgive me, for the reasons I have written, can hardly be described as a reliable source of Truth

Now I may be interested in hearing of events at Wallacia, provided these are not fee paying seances to make an income for the "mediums", which should always fall within the rules of the new protocols. Experimental work is always interesting to hear about e.g. the table movement and transfiguration at my last open group (together with some of the messages via mental mediumship) were excellent. observed in clear, slightly dimmed halogen overhead light. These were by a small fee for the centre.

Jim
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by hiorta on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:37 am

Excellent points Jim. I've become aware of some sort of 'over shield' to keep or disallow inappropriate material or unearned knowledge within vibrationary restriction.

This feels to be along the lines similar to 'Who would be foolish enough provide children with all the raw materials to fashion an atomic bomb. One day someone will surely but accidentally get the sequence right.
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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by obiwan on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:06 pm

It's simple really. If you want people to accept what you're telling them, provide some evidence. To say that some unidentified person has done something important without saying what it is, seems a bit pointless to me.

obiwan


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by wattie on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:50 pm

Inge wrote: Sorry, we can't be more obliging to your requests right now. The full transcript of the audio will be available and all the sitters  are happy to write their experiences if requested.

I appreciate your time spent in reporting on your recent experiences and hope that you will continue to keep us informed but given all the recent controversy I would like to request that all the sitters do write up their experiences so that we may read their individual testimonies, especially as they are happy to do so.

wattie


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Re: Psychic News TRUTH campaign to end fraud in physical mediums

Post by mac on Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:15 pm

Today I ended up in this thread by error. Looking back we'd been promised we'd learn more about events mentioned in the thread but it's over 4 months and we've not had any further communication from Inge.

I wonder what we should conclude? Neutral

mac


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