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odd

Post by mac on Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:48 pm

This is an odd site. Every now-and-then a thread takes off, a good discussion gets going for a time, then the contributors disappear and the whole place goes dead. Question

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Re: odd

Post by Admin on Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:48 pm

True Mac, unfortunately in the last year I have been so busy with extra work that I have had trouble generating new material as well.
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Re: odd

Post by Slatewriter on Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:15 pm

So, how about we start a discussion ?

Question : If an audio turns up which is purported to contain voices of those in Spirit, how can we convince sceptics (or skeptics !) that it's not just a load of old balony...?

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Re: odd

Post by Admin on Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:25 pm

Very interesting question Slatewriter, probably like most antiques provenance ...what do we know of the recording and the circumstances surrounding it. A bit like what Grandad did in the dark and Noah Zerdin...maybe a good case study?
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Re: odd

Post by mac on Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:57 pm

Slatewriter wrote:So, how about we start a discussion ?

Question : If an audio turns up which is purported to contain voices of those in Spirit, how can we convince sceptics (or skeptics !) that it's not just a load of old balony...?

Before we try convincing others we'd need to be convinced ourselves! After that we'd likely face the same uphill battle always faced in the past but skeptics aren't receptive. Ordinary folk looking for reassurance about death and survival would be a better target. Skeptics are probably not going to allow themselves to be convinced by anything....

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Re: odd

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:10 am

Yes it would be difficult and we will never move sceptics or fanatics for whom their version of heaven excludes anyone outside their own creed or version thereof. However, some things have a trickle down effect all the work of the past has seen a massive increase in an acceptance of life beyond death.

In reality many early Spiritualists felt that was all Spirit wished to achieve not to create their own religion but to illuminate other religions changing their perceptions of human existence.

Here is a fragment from the Noah Zerdin recordings which illustrates how hard convincing people could be. However, rather than a talk one Sunday I played 15 minutes of the programme What Grandad Did in the Dark and it was pretty well accepted.
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Re: odd

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:12 am

There is an interesting British Library article http://britishlibrary.typepad.co.uk/english-and-drama/2014/05/the-spirit-voice-of-sir-arthur-conan-doyle.html
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Re: odd

Post by Slatewriter on Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:20 am

(Mac: I suppose my question has been prompted by listening to lots of Leslie Flint stuff lately - but I was really referring to a hypothetical recording.)

However, lets say we have a cassette tape allegedly recorded at a seance...it's clear who is 'spirit' and who are sitters - but how could we expect Jo Public to take it at face value...?
It may be easy enough for 'believers' to accept the probability that it could be genuine...but not so I fear, the general public...

Admin: I was interested in what you say about a 'trickle down' effect and how you feel that past workers are gaining a renewed interest today...I think they're just fed up of us being so thick, so they're 'shaking the tree' to grab our attention !

Also, regarding the British Library article you've shared, I emailed the appropriate department recently and they tell me they have no current plans to digitise the other ACD recordings....but should I wish to visit the London library, for only £45 an hour I could employ a staff member to record a CD of the entire collection for my own 'personal' use !!!
(Of course, I politely declined - but perhaps some of the richer members here might like to give it a go ?)

All in all, even when I've rammed the Leslie Flint recordings down my own friends necks, they seem to stick to their existing philosophies and simply see them as an oddity, instead of the revelation that they are.  (Well they are in my opinion.)

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Re: odd

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:57 am

Hmm Slatewriter we approached the National Library of Australia to buy a copy of the film for the entire publication run of Harbinger of Light 187 to 1954. They declined saying that they preferred to digitalise material themselves. They did say this publication was not a priority for them, but, for $40,000, they would bring it to the top of the pile, digitise it and make it available to the public. It makes the hourly rate for you about the same as the NLA wanted.

I agree with your comments "Admin: I was interested in what you say about a 'trickle down' effect and how you feel that past workers are gaining a renewed interest today...I think they're just fed up of us being so thick, so they're 'shaking the tree' to grab our attention !"

I am finding some more interest in people over here beginning to push to ensure that they become as good a medium as they can. Even having more dedicated and impressive mental mediums would help but I cannot help some really good direct voice, materialisations in conditions where people can see what is going on (heck even decent trance and transfiguration on a proof of survival basis), good EVP I'd even by some slate writing in controlled commission, real spirit photo and convincing spirit art. Not asking for a lot but anything to shake the sceptics mind.

In honesty I think they would still challenge a séance run in test conditions that basically precluded fraud. Séance room in dim red light where the low light photographic capacity of a thermographic camera allows an overlay to the infra red material. Electronic pressure plates under the floor covering recording movement and the weight of the medium/chair, non intrusive medical sensors on the medium recording heart rate, brain patterns etc etc, in much the same way as top athletes are now being monitored. I think materialisation in that setup would rattle even the most hardened sceptic. I admit that I would also want the medium to not know who the majority of the sitters were as long as they were validated to protect them. In the modern internet age so much can be found in beforehand if the forms that are submitted in advance were misused, William Roy would have a field day today, his own computer database, his notes from conversations with séance lovers and the internet.

No need for straps then and totally non intrusive, athletes use that set up and thermography is used to monitor many sensitive industries. An expensive  (or moderately expensive) set up, however, I predict not one modern PM would accept it. I am not put off by that rejection,they would probably reject full body cavity searches then being forced to wear supplied clothes, sewn up in a bag and locked in an iron cage (occasionally with an iron circle affixed to the wall secured round their waste as well) yet there forerunners submitted to these and other painful stringent tests and still materialisation appeared. However the sceptics just dismiss this as the work of collusion and lies from the séance attendee despite the strong evidence that this is incorrect.

Despite the fact that the painstaking research Lis and I are working through, often with other researchers is slowly breaking the reputation of some "heroic" figures of the past there are some who's reputation should be growing. I think Feb's (or march's) psypioneer will carry the first of a two part article Lis has completed on the latter years of Catherine Wood including her trip to Australia with her death in Adelaide (sadly Lis cannot find her grave, it is one of the many that have dropped off the record the plot probably being re used). Its interesting and a good read.
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Re: odd

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:05 am

Fascinating it looks like Carlos Alvarado is contemplating the same issue https://carlossalvarado.wordpress.com/2015/02/10/writing-about-mediumship/
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Re: odd

Post by obiwan on Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:10 pm

The issue I see with any EVP recording is that of provenance. Even if the EVP is clear enough, it is easy for a cynic to dismiss it as fraudulent or at least potentially so. The same for photographs and video. I don't think anything like that will convince a person who is not open to the idea that such phenomena are at least possible.

As for those who are open-minded and undecided; EVP recordings, video and pictures all rely on the honesty of the people producing them and also on our individual view of their bona fides. This seems to me a very difficult hurdle to leap unless we know these people personally, which often we don't.

If I consider that EVP is possible, then I might at least consider recordings as potentially evidential but I can't see how they would ever lead me to complete conviction unless I had made them myself, or had been closely involved in their production. Even then I wouldn't expect others to simply accept my word.

Personally, the EVP recordings I have listened to have been, at best, curious. At worst they could have been anything. They also seem disjointed and answers to questions often seem unconnected to the question or have to be shoe-horned to fit. They never really seem to sound like a proper dialogue (the few I have heard anyhow).

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Re: odd

Post by mac on Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:56 pm

obiwan wrote:The issue I see with any EVP recording is that of provenance. Even if the EVP is clear enough, it is easy for a cynic to dismiss it as fraudulent or at least potentially so. The same for photographs and video. I don't think anything like that will convince a person who is not open to the idea that such phenomena are at least possible.

As for those who are open-minded and undecided; EVP recordings, video and pictures all rely on the honesty of the people producing them and also on our individual view of their bona fides. This seems to me a very difficult hurdle to leap unless we know these people personally, which often we don't.

If I consider that EVP is possible, then I might at least consider recordings as potentially evidential but I can't see how they would ever lead me to complete conviction unless I had made them myself, or had been closely involved in their production. Even then I wouldn't expect others to simply accept my word.

Personally, the EVP recordings I have listened to have been, at best, curious. At worst they could have been anything. They also seem disjointed and answers to questions often seem unconnected to the question or have to be shoe-horned to fit. They never really seem to sound like a proper dialogue (the few I have heard anyhow).

I agree totally.

On PM4U is a guy who's always posting his heavily cleaned-up (manipulated?) recordings and I've listened to the odd one to see whether I can make anything out. Even with all his manipulation I found nothing that persuades me they are the voices of discarnates. A sceptic about survival would be a less receptive listener than I!

As for photos I've recently been getting it in the neck on another website. I'd been 'speaking' to a particular individual about photos and signs being personal and evidential to their observers but not necessarily persuasive to those who aren't involved. That was seen as an attack by a member who had posted her photos in another thread! Others joined the mac-bashing yet all of us accept the notion of survival.

In both the above cases I am confident that none of the material would convince a skeptic and even a 'believer' might find it hard to accept the sounds and images as evidence of 'spirit' presences....

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Re: odd

Post by obiwan on Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:05 pm

I get what you're saying Mac and I fully agree. I don't see the necessary link between believing in survival and abandoning one's critical senses and common sense.

It sometimes seems to me that as soon as some accept unequivocally that we survive, they adopt the position of being a believer, then it seems everything has to be accepted, which is clearly ridiculous. In addition, any challenge to their beliefs no matter how peripheral or reasonable has to be rejected. It's almost as though no sliver of doubt can be admitted.

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Re: odd

Post by mac on Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:32 pm

obiwan wrote:I get what you're saying Mac and I fully agree. I don't see the necessary link between believing in survival and abandoning one's critical senses and common sense.

It sometimes seems to me that as soon as some accept unequivocally that we survive, they adopt the position of being a believer, then it seems everything has to be accepted, which is clearly ridiculous. In addition, any challenge to their beliefs no matter how peripheral or reasonable has to be rejected. It's almost as though no sliver of doubt can be admitted.

What results in my often feeling like I'm treading on egg shells is the way that anything less than total support is considered as challenging someone's honesty or integrity.  Just as disagreement often is mistranslated as  disrespect in the eyes of those unable or unwilling to support the claims they make. (sometimes deliberately I feel)

It's the case that so much of this business of accepting the notion of survival is highly personal to those experiencing the revelation while at the same time there's abundant commonality.  Perhaps it's only when we're fully confident ourselves that we don't fear what others may feel?

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Re: odd

Post by obiwan on Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:40 pm

mac wrote:
obiwan wrote:I get what you're saying Mac and I fully agree. I don't see the necessary link between believing in survival and abandoning one's critical senses and common sense.

It sometimes seems to me that as soon as some accept unequivocally that we survive, they adopt the position of being a believer, then it seems everything has to be accepted, which is clearly ridiculous. In addition, any challenge to their beliefs no matter how peripheral or reasonable has to be rejected. It's almost as though no sliver of doubt can be admitted.

What results in my often feeling like I'm treading on egg shells is the way that anything less than total support is considered as challenging someone's honesty or integrity.  Just as disagreement often is mistranslated as  disrespect in the eyes of those unable or unwilling to support the claims they make. (sometimes deliberately I feel)

It's the case that so much of this business of accepting the notion of survival is highly personal to those experiencing the revelation while at the same time there's abundant commonality.  Perhaps it's only when we're fully confident ourselves that we don't fear what others may feel?

That anything less than total support is required indicates either that the matter is proven beyond all doubt (which of course it most certainly is not in the general sense, though I accept it may be for many based on their personal experience), or that it would only be challenged by those who had some ulterior motive do so doing.

One approach I have used in the past is to phrase questions in the third person 'what would you say to someone who asked.. xyz'. I am sure you have tried that. If you have tried all reasonable avenues then I'm afraid it's pearls before swine Smile

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Re: odd

Post by mac on Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:32 am

obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:
obiwan wrote:I get what you're saying Mac and I fully agree. I don't see the necessary link between believing in survival and abandoning one's critical senses and common sense.

It sometimes seems to me that as soon as some accept unequivocally that we survive, they adopt the position of being a believer, then it seems everything has to be accepted, which is clearly ridiculous. In addition, any challenge to their beliefs no matter how peripheral or reasonable has to be rejected. It's almost as though no sliver of doubt can be admitted.

What results in my often feeling like I'm treading on egg shells is the way that anything less than total support is considered as challenging someone's honesty or integrity.  Just as disagreement often is mistranslated as  disrespect in the eyes of those unable or unwilling to support the claims they make. (sometimes deliberately I feel)

It's the case that so much of this business of accepting the notion of survival is highly personal to those experiencing the revelation while at the same time there's abundant commonality.  Perhaps it's only when we're fully confident ourselves that we don't fear what others may feel?

That anything less than total support is required indicates either that the matter is proven beyond all doubt (which of course it most certainly is not in the general sense, though I accept it may be for many based on their personal experience), or that it would only be challenged by those who had some ulterior motive do so doing.

One approach I have used in the past is to phrase questions in the third person 'what would you say to someone who asked.. xyz'. I am sure you have tried that. If you have tried all reasonable avenues then I'm afraid it's pearls before swine Smile

Concerning the thread I talked about earlier, I had kept my distance from the photographs one and it was the thread contributor who then 'jumped thread' to confront me.

My discussion was about the generality of the situation surrounding orbs, objects etc. in photos and I was enquiring if our mostly-unseen friends could deliberately impinge whatever of their personal energy was affecting these photographs, causing the effects they did. (as had been suggested)

My conclusion was that the member was very sensitive about her photos but she didn't need to be with me because I hadn't commented on - or even viewed - them. Nothing much one can do when someone is so prickly, I guess....

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Re: odd

Post by Wes on Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:11 am

Just out of interest Mac, was it a spiritualist forum or a spiritual forum that you're referring to?

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Re: odd

Post by mac on Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:17 am

Wes wrote:Just out of interest Mac, was it a spiritualist forum or a spiritual forum that you're referring to?


Not a Spiritualism website but one with an afterlife focus.

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