Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:55 pm

Lis wrote:First, let me thank Bravo for posting the remarks made by Dr Nahm on PM4U and the response made by KM that it seems have now been deleted from that forum.

I have read the various responses here with interest. With regard to Obiwan's comments I must admit having a background in law and social welfare I am generally inclined to support the view that when someone is genuinely believed to be committing fraud the matter should be taken to the police. On the other hand, as a Spiritualist, and based on past experience, I am all too aware of how the police deal with, or more accurately, decline to deal with such complaints, unless the complainant has certain and substantial evidence that fraud has taken place.

While there is much circumstantial evidence to support the reasonable belief that KM has been cheating, at the very least, on some occasions, and possibly much of the time, as yet no one has actually caught him in the act of fraud, This makes it very difficult therefore for a complainant to be taken seriously, especially when the general attitude of the police to all psychic phenomena is that it is ALL fraud, all nonsense, and those who take it seriously are all gullible and credulous idiots.

The real issue in regard to fraud is whether KM is carrying out these acts of deception for personal and financial gain. And it seems he certainly is. My understanding is that in the UK the current legislation, introduced several years ago now, is not dissimilar to that current in the EEC. Perhaps those who are concerned about the activities of KM should be looking at the provisions of current legislation to see if there is an avenue that can be pursued in that direction.

Equally, I support the current approach of making public matters of concern regarding Kai Muegge. While Dr. Nahm has made his opinions "public" in the sense he has written a report published in a particular journal, I do not see that his report has had a wide circulation sufficient to suggest that his information regarding KM has become general public knowledge.

Certainly, his attempt to make his report known to those who subscribe to PM4U, a forum specifically dedicated to those people interested in physical mediumship, and therefore the very people who need to be made aware of the concerns, has been defeated by the position the owner of PM4U has taken by deleting all reference to it.

In Dr. Nahm again trying to express his concerns and point out the dishonesty in Muegge's blog I see him merely attempting to correct a distortion of the truth and to again attempt to alert physical mediumship adherents to the potential dangers of continued belief in the activities of KM. The response on the part of the PM4U forum owner is once more to censure the truth and prevent people from having information on which they could make their own assessment. They might have continued to believe in KM despite the evidence, they may not.

But Robin Foy is not prepared to let people make up their own minds about the matters of concern. He is making up their minds for them by his actions. His conduct does him no credit at all.

This forum has attempted to redress the balance by re-posting material in the hope that those on PM4U and elsewhere can read what has been written and be in a position to form an opinion, independent of Foy. Again, some may decide KM is not worth spending their time and money on, others may continue to believe in him. So be it. But, if in making these matters public we prevent just one person from being duped it will be a good thing to have done.

I, personally, do not see that in discussing this subject, nor indeed, 'don't like frauds' posts, as constituting a vendetta. If the discussion can be so defined then I would suggest it is, as a vendetta, a righteous one, for it is an attempt to reveal, to expose, the fraudulent activities of a person who is taking people's money under false pretences. Moreover, it is an attempt to prevent once again Spiritualism and mediumship from being associated with dishonesty and disreputable conmen (or women) who would hijack the phenomena for their own ends.

I am not saying a vendetta would be wrong or even that it is one. Discussing it here certainly isn't a vendetta or a campaign. Pursuing it directly or in places where it is recognised it will not be welcome could look more like that perhaps.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Lis on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:33 pm

No doubt you are right, Obiwan, that pursuing the topic directly on such as PM4U where it is not welcomed may give rise to claims of vendetta, personal attack, or as KM suggests, "character assassination," however, when that forum is the place that those interested in PM gather, surely it is the very place that such concerns should be aired. Allowing both sides of the argument -not censuring one, while allowing the other to speak with impunity.

While I acknowledge Robin Foy's 'right' to run his forum as he pleases, it seems a terrible shame that he will not allow any real discussion of issues. To repeatedly delete posts and often ban the posters sends a message that only he is able to judge what is true and what is false, and only his opinion, and the comments of those he has deemed genuine may be presented to the public are worthy of discussion, and only if that discussion at no point questions the legitimacy of pm.

Amongst the genuine, there is a long history of fraud in physical mediumship. Those who are so passionate about pm should be the first to stand up and speak out about the frauds so as to ensure the genuine is not tarred with the same brush.

Perhaps it is time that those who proclaim they are genuine pm's and who are well aware of what is going on with such as KM and WC, indeed, quietly refuse to work in any venue where KM and WC are welcomed, should stand up for what they believe in and speak out to the physical mediumship community to let them know what they know.

Lis
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:38 pm

Lis wrote:No doubt you are right, Obiwan, that pursuing the topic directly on such as PM4U where it is not welcomed may give rise to claims of vendetta, personal attack, or as KM suggests, "character assassination," however, when that forum is the place that those interested in PM gather, surely it is the very place that such concerns should be aired. Allowing both sides of the argument -not censuring one, while allowing the other to speak with impunity.

While I acknowledge Robin Foy's 'right' to run his forum as he pleases, it seems a terrible shame that he will not allow any real discussion of issues. To repeatedly delete posts and often ban the posters sends a message that only he is able to judge what is true and what is false, and only his opinion, and the comments of those he has deemed genuine may be presented to the public are worthy of discussion, and only if that discussion at no point questions the legitimacy of pm.

Amongst the genuine, there is a long history of fraud in physical mediumship. Those who are so passionate about pm should be the first to stand up and speak out about the frauds so as to ensure the genuine is not tarred with the same brush.

Perhaps it is time that those who proclaim they are genuine pm's and who are well aware of what is going on with such as KM and WC, indeed, quietly refuse to work in any venue where KM and WC are welcomed, should stand up for what they believe in and speak out to the physical mediumship community to let them know what they know.

Well by their fruits shall ye know them eh? This is a good place to discuss the issues. Filtering discussion as appears to be the case on PM4U says it all really IMHO.

It would help if there were one or two good examples of physical mediums of the calibre of Alex Harris, or Leslie Flint then people would have something to compare KM/WC et al with.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:44 pm

Sadly this website seems to be contributed to by very few members, even fewer are practitioners and it's not one that's particularly targeted at p.m. anyway.

But it's surely not unknown to members of PM4U and their absence here suggests they choose the safe and guarded environment of their chosen discussion forums....

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:48 pm

Yes and there are those who would like to set up a Jihad on us unbelievers despite the extraordinary evidence.
So please consider becoming a community activist. Your silence only legitimatizes his attack on one of our few heroes. Tom Butler wrote:
http://ethericstudies.org/essays/the-felix-study-personal-attack-under-cover-of-science/
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:53 pm

obiwan wrote:
Lis wrote:No doubt you are right, Obiwan, that pursuing the topic directly on such as PM4U where it is not welcomed may give rise to claims of vendetta, personal attack, or as KM suggests, "character assassination," however, when that forum is the place that those interested in PM gather, surely it is the very place that such concerns should be aired. Allowing both sides of the argument -not censuring one, while allowing the other to speak with impunity.

While I acknowledge Robin Foy's 'right' to run his forum as he pleases, it seems a terrible shame that he will not allow any real discussion of issues. To repeatedly delete posts and often ban the posters sends a message that only he is able to judge what is true and what is false, and only his opinion, and the comments of those he has deemed genuine may be presented to the public are worthy of discussion, and only if that discussion at no point questions the legitimacy of pm.

Amongst the genuine, there is a long history of fraud in physical mediumship. Those who are so passionate about pm should be the first to stand up and speak out about the frauds so as to ensure the genuine is not tarred with the same brush.

Perhaps it is time that those who proclaim they are genuine pm's and who are well aware of what is going on with such as KM and WC, indeed, quietly refuse to work in any venue where KM and WC are welcomed, should stand up for what they believe in and speak out to the physical mediumship community to let them know what they know.

Well by their fruits shall ye know them eh? This is a good place to discuss the issues. Filtering discussion as appears to be the case on PM4U says it all really IMHO.

It would help if there were one or two good examples of physical mediums of the calibre of Alex Harris, or Leslie Flint then people would have something to compare KM/WC et al with.

All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship. It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:16 am

I suppose one of my concerns is where Prof Stephen Braude is actually going with the next series of investigations he seems to have reached an agreement with Kai Muegge to carry out.

This interview here shows he has strengthened his "mixed mediumship" viewhttp://elfvinginstitute.org/2014/12/07/stephen-braude-exclusively-on-elfvinginstitutes-blog/ . The real question now is his own motive, is it to rebuild a reputation partially damaged by the discoveries of others, or is he really interested to give Kai another chance despite the existing evidence. It will be very important to be certain that the controls he uses are valid, thorough and complete.

Realistically it would be good if this series involved another senior researcher of similar or greater substance especially as Braude seems to have established a rapport with the subject.

I am not sure that, despite the substantially stronger, more realistic, phenomena Eusapia Palladino produced, both fraudulently and "apparently genuinely", in comparison to Muegge, any of the truly great researcher who worked with her gained much in the way of Kudos from their efforts. So Prof Braude may be venturing down a path that leads him to a point where he may be convinced but the research and broader community may feel his evidence is either not valid or does not change the underlying issues raised by Muegge's past action.

Jim
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:18 am

mac wrote:All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship.  It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

True Mac even the continuing research will all be about phenomena not proving survival. Séances like this are a waste of time for any Spiritualist.
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Neilos on Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:32 am

Glad I am psting here and not PM4U honest debate beats censorship anyday. RB should hang is head in shame.

Neilos


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:49 am

I agree Mac. The fundamental problem, it seems to me, is the dearth of evidential mediumship.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:53 am

obiwan wrote:I agree Mac. The fundamental problem, it seems to me, is the dearth of evidential mediumship.

Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose..... Sad

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:57 am

Admin wrote:
mac wrote:All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship.  It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

True Mac even the continuing research will all be about phenomena not proving survival. Séances like this are a waste of time for any Spiritualist.

I suppose the reality may be that those attending do it more to experience the phenomena with any evidential material as a bonus. And perhaps those who go for those reasons may not see, or describe themselves as, Spiritualists anyway. Question

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:23 am

mac wrote:
Admin wrote:
mac wrote:All these discussions about phenomena tend to totally sidetrack us away from what mediumship's really about - at least as far as we Spiritualists (and my duck friend) are concerned, that of the demonstration of survival through evidential mediumship.  It probably wouldn't much matter how phenomena were being produced if our practitioner friends were also providing sound evidence of survival for those seeking it.

True Mac even the continuing research will all be about phenomena not proving survival. Séances like this are a waste of time for any Spiritualist.

I suppose the reality may be that those attending do it more to experience the phenomena with any evidential material as a bonus.  And perhaps those who go for those reasons may not see, or describe themselves as, Spiritualists anyway.    Question

It's amazng what can be achieved with yoghurt cartons and two yards of knicker elastic as any fan of Blue Peter will tell you.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:41 pm

When I wore new to all this spooks stuff, but larnin' pretty-damn-quick, I had a letter published in PN (those were the days when you wrote letters on paper with a pen!) which attracted the attention of a certain member who's not seen often now on this website.

I was roundly told off for having the temerity to suggest that some NAS circles/groups sitting for physical phenomena sometimes appeared (based on what was written) to be more impressed by the phenomena than they were by achieving reliable, evidential mediumship.

Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.....

 Wink

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Neilos on Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:00 pm

I have gone through the 'phenomenon junkie' phase and can now see it is pointless without evidence of survival. I have lost interest in public séances and have had better experiences and validation via sitting in various home circles.

Neilos


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sun Jan 04, 2015 2:23 pm

dont-like-frauds- I certainly understand your need to have like-minded people to vent this with Kaj - It was the same for me with Anders Åkesson, 2010 - You feel betrayed and nearly raped. In your own faith in them.It is a great sadness and a large hole in the heart to know that they continue to deceive other people. No one wants to be bothered or even hear warnings. - It turned instead back on yourself - then other people think you should be divine and forgive- It is Unable to forgive - it's a completely ruined abuse.

We need voices that reveal them - t physical mediumship has become a phenomenon circus Sad

Robin Foy - delited al my post in PM4U and myself aswell - regarding him he is deceiver himself and defending others who cheat - it's disgusting- that make you want to puke.

I think the only thing we can do is to enlighten others as we can about them. Right now it is some sort of contest to see who is the best physical medium and Robins Forum encourages it.Many start their physical medium nity development from totally wrong reasons - they can not even the history of the subject. Can not be anything than shit then.

Think it is a shame for physical mediumship and spiritualism what is happening now - materialism has its grip on them.

It's a tough experience, we have to bear with us - but perhaps the best to never have to go that route.We who have experienced these fraudsters will never be deceived again and that experience gives us the experience to build up the genuine physical mediumship again zorro
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Sun Jan 04, 2015 3:31 pm

I understand that Jane has been personally impacted by events that have undermined her faith in certain individuals.  Isn't that often the way in life, though, and not found only in the field of phenomenalism?  

And much as she - or we - may disapprove of the way that PM4U is moderated and run it's not our website, we don't pay the bills and we don't get to say how it's run and how its owner should or shouldn't behave.  There's nothing unusual in that - all websites belongs to their owners and not to their users/members.  But please don't think that means I'm supporting what's written on PM4U or why material is removed.  

If there's any saving grace, however, it's that much of what is written about has little to do with Modern Spiritualism, its philosophy or teachings.  I am pleased that's the case and the reality is that few of its members appear to be much interested in Spiritualism anyway.  The few who write there in support of its principles, and argue against phenomenalism masquerading as mediumship, often see their contributions removed and that seems childish to me but I don't get to choose as I don't pay the bills.

He who pays the piper gets to pick the tune....

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sun Jan 04, 2015 4:12 pm

mac wrote:I understand that Jane has been personally impacted by events that have undermined her faith in certain individuals.  Isn't that often the way in life, though, and not found only in the field of phenomenalism?  

And much as she - or we - may disapprove of the way that PM4U is moderated and run it's not our website, we don't pay the bills and we don't get to say how it's run and how its owner should or shouldn't behave.  There's nothing unusual in that - all websites belongs to their owners and not to their users/members.  But please don't think that means I'm supporting what's written on PM4U or why material is removed.  

If there's any saving grace, however, it's that much of what is written about has little to do with Modern Spiritualism, its philosophy or teachings.  I am pleased that's the case and the reality is that few of its members appear to be much interested in Spiritualism anyway.  The few who write there in support of its principles, and argue against phenomenalism masquerading as mediumship, often see their contributions removed and that seems childish to me but I don't get to choose as I don't pay the bills.

He who pays the piper gets to pick the tune....

that is the problem how I see it whit PM4U
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:41 pm

The PM4U website isn't a problem provided one realises it's heavily-protective towards phenomenalist practitioners and clumsily moderated to avoid searching questions about anyone, even when they perhaps deserve it.  

But no-one is forced to be a member if they don't like how the website operates and traditional physical mediumship, or any other flavour, may be discussed here and elsewhere.  Of course certain so-called physical mediums will love the protected environment provided on PM4U and it's their prerogative not to engage elsewhere where they expect probing questions.

We may feel completely rational and justified in how we feel about such websites but that's not going to influence anyone who doesn't share similar values.

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:49 pm

mac wrote:The PM4U website isn't a problem provided one realises it's heavily-protective towards phenomenalist practitioners and clumsily moderated to avoid searching questions about anyone, even when they perhaps deserve it.  

But no-one is forced to be a member if they don't like how the website operates and traditional physical mediumship, or any other flavour, may be discussed here and elsewhere.  Of course certain so-called physical mediums will love the protected environment provided on PM4U and it's their prerogative not to engage elsewhere where they expect probing questions.

We may feel completely rational and justified in how we feel about such websites but that's not going to influence anyone who doesn't share similar values.

the problem is that they see them selfs as leding on physical mediumship on PM4U - and they  all in there think they know the best- it is irritating bounce

especially when froud medium are protected
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Mon Jan 05, 2015 4:14 am

You have as little influence in the matter, Jane, as the rest of us but is there any point in becoming frustrated by it all?  

Those who follow the work of the phenomenalists do so by choice, presumably impressed by what they experience.  If they're persuaded what they see is genuine then your words will fall on deaf ears and, changing the metaphor, there are none so blind as those who choose not to see.  

It's pretty plain by now that the owner of website PM4U will accept nothing that challenges what the physical phenomena followers believe in and will remove from its website anything that even tries to challenge it.

As for being leaders on the subject of physical mediumship, well in their minds it's what they believe and you won't ever change the beliefs of most of them I'd guess.  I don't much care what their beliefs may be, I don't much care what phenomena they pay to experience - they have the right to choose their paths just as we all do.
 
Maybe I'm growing mellow in my old age because nowadays I don't feel any frustration about such events.  Very Happy

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Neilos on Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:05 am

I agree Mac, to be able to discern between what constitutes good physical mediumship and bad, I feel it helps to have a range of experiences. Personally feel that the home circle is the best place to get evidential physical mediumship and is by far more meaningful than public demonstrations.


Last edited by Neilos on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Admin on Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:12 am

Comments, personally I think this is about as stupid as anything I have seen, only a True Believer could buy it. http://felixcircle.blogspot.com.au/
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Jane Lyzell on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:40 pm

You have the right mac - but I like justice - and defend the mourners who are beeing deceived - it's not right. I questioned Robin Foy school reporting it was part photos that I questioned, among others, the photo on his so-called guid and faces - where I could clearly see it was circle participants' faces - for the study circle members so you could see it-Robin claimed it was the spirit faces.

I was thrown out immediately.


Last edited by Jane Lyzell on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Jane Lyzell on Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:42 pm

Admin wrote:Comments, personally I think this is about as stupid as anything I have seen, only a True Believer could buy it. http://felixcircle.blogspot.com.au/

totely agree - desperately trying to prove he is genuine
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