Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Lis on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:24 am

Perhaps of interest is the fact that, as I understand it, Mr Muegge was planning to visit the USA in early 2015. One can only hope that he was not intending to enter that country also on a tourist visa when planning to hold a series of séances for which he would be paid.

Perhaps, as a result of his disastrous attempt to enter Australia on a tourist visa only to be sent home, thus failing to fulfil his agreed commitments to those in Australia (and by the way, undoubtedly causing them financial grief in the process), he will now be wanting to find a way to enter America legally.

Perhaps he might hope to obtain a temporary work permit, but that is not always so easy to do I believe, and of course, it would require him to declare his income and pay the appropriate taxes in whatever country is applicable, which might be a serious blow, after having so successfully avoided such legal niceties in recent times when travelling to some countries.

He might also have some difficulties if some of his past escapades became known to the US immigration authorities. They certainly do not like to give entry to people whose past activities and habits are viewed as anti-social (or, of course, illegal), so I do hope that Mr Muegge's past isn't going to catch up with him. But then again, if there is anything in his past that might make him be considered undesirable by the US authorities, it would be their right to refuse him entry into that country.


Lis
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by LeroyC on Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:37 am

Hello all,

Have been reading the posts about Mr Muegge with increasing alarm. I have not sat with him, BUT based upon my experience with physical mediums can I suggest the following:

Mediums do NOT pull ectoplasm from themselves. If he was in deep trance, then this would not be possible. I have grave doubts about this.

Once evidence of fraud has been found, or there is a STRONG possibility that the medium has been caught out in such activity their reputation is FOREVER tarnished. There will always be a lingering doubt ( even where a researcher may indicate that genuine phenomena is taking place ). That is a sad fact, but those who profess to practice physical mediumship need to be squeaky clean in that regard and in their practice of it.

That said, there will always be those with hidden agendas whom despite the best evidence will still try and accuse the medium of fakery ( Ie, Mr Houdini and Margery )This is blatantly wrong and is fraud in another guise !. However, when multiple investigators or sitters have doubts it is time to sit up and take notice (Anders Akesson is a case in point...sorry if the spelling is wrong ! ).

I think Mr Muegge is now on increasingly thin ice.......Self promotion may all be very well in this game, but you need to produce the goods if you go down that route.

LeroyC

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Lis on Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:10 am

I think your comments are very apt LeroyC.

And, yes, there are also those who have hidden agendas that will try to accuse a medium of fakery and do so falsely, but I feel sure that this is not the case here. Muegge has been investigated by sincere, serious and committed scientists who have expressed their doubts, and the evidence to support those concerns.

They do not say that all is fraud, but, it seems to me that what they do say should raise serious concerns and make us really look a lot closer at this person, their mediumship, what might motivate them, and their past history.

Lis
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by LeroyC on Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:05 pm

Hello Liz,

Spot on. I think your assessment is very accurate here...Such a shame, but unfortunately it does not surprise me. I think these days a great 'motivator' for those professing to demonstrate physical mediumship is the 'scent of money' ( Not all, but many ). I have always said that the science of survival and the very rare gift of physical mediumship if far too precious to be about money.

I am upset by the fact that so many now seem to not think this, and that there are so many deluded people and so called physical mediums who will play on the emotions of others who may be gullible, but also be in genuine need. That to me is criminal. ( although its not new is it )

I am reminded here of the mediumship of Hunter Selkirk as an example of perhaps HOW to conduct oneself when possessing this gift. The short account of some of his seances 'Listen my son' is certainly worth reading.

LeroyC

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Mark74 on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:26 pm

Hi LeroyC, you are quite right using Hunter Selkirk as an example.

May I just add that if people are interested in reading about Hunter's life as a medium ''Listen My Son'' by Harry Emerson is available to buy from Craghead Spiritualist Church.

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Mark74 wrote:Hi LeroyC, you are quite right using Hunter Selkirk as an example.

May I just add that if people are interested in reading about Hunter's life as a medium ''Listen My Son'' by Harry Emerson is available to buy from Craghead Spiritualist Church.  

I'll endorse that too. A good read and inexpensive.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:13 am

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by Admin on Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:45 am

Welcome to the forum Hermann, thankyou for that very informative post. It sounds like there is a lot more that you could tell us and many things may not be as they are seen with Kai.

Best wishes
Jim
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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:05 am

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 10:56 am

Hello Hermanand welcome.

There is a very easy way for Kai (and anyone else) to prove their mediumship is genuine: have the phenomena investigated with sufficient controls by an independent body. To some extent he has done this but doesn't like the conclusions.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:26 am

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:20 pm

The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty. Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:46 pm

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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:50 pm

mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:51 pm

dont-like-frauds wrote:
mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Let´s see. My wife always says: "time will bring solution"...she´s thai and i must admit, that i underestimate their wisdom much too long... silent
Oh, i´ve just seen a lovely smiley:

There is an old saying: Time reveals all things. I agree with your wife 😄

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:23 pm

..


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:50 pm

obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

Hi obi - I'm doing OK thanks other than being embroiled in something similar on another website concerning honesty but in connection with erstwhile member here, Waller Joel.  

If you recall he disappeared from this website after being accused of being the troll MU!! but he's established himself online elsewhere as an expert on various matters spiritual.  I've watched there with concern but my expressing doubts about his authenticity and honesty led to a very hostile reaction from someone persuaded he's the 'real deal', forgetting or ignoring his similarities of behaviour to the troll who created mayhem on that website last year.  If he's not the same guy the similarities are remarkable!

In such situations as we see with KM (or WJ) whadya do?  Should we be concerned if conmen dupe the vulnerable and the willing?  Or just leave them to fend for themselves or enjoy the ride when they're willing participants?  Mostly concerned folk don't like others being taken advantage of so I think it's reasonable that we feel as we do about KM and that I feel as I do about WJ.  

If eventually we're proven wrong about either of the guys I'm prepared to admit it.

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:53 pm

dont-like-frauds wrote:
obiwan wrote:

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.
Y
Just a thought.

That´s so true what you´re writing.
I would add to what makes sth. like this running, is the fact if you join in open-minded, with an open heart, with much credit even if the actor occurs a little bit special and if one has had most of the time only good experiences with spirit and the people involved. And: curiosity! And being part of something special! And the believe to be in contact with spirit more directly than ever in an „easy way“
Maybe one could even say: too much uncritical and a little bit too foolish.
I can remember Kai writing in his „internal“ emails to his „cultmembers“ as a joke. But a joke contains most of the time so much truth. And we laugh before we cry.
Long time ago, i´ve watched a tv dokumentation about a long haired man, finally leaving a cult and he said (and he actually doesn´t look like this): „i could never imagine, that i could join a cult“. I thought, yes how stupid must one be....The last three years i´ve had time enough to look in the mirror...
bow

Hi DLF (I've shortened your name hope that's ok Very Happy )

Making a fair judgement about evidence can be very tricky indeed. It is also possible that some mediums mix genuine phenomena with fraud. Maybe people taken in were a bit too trusting but I don't necessarily think foolish.

The cult analogy is a good one. I know how easily it is to be convinced and taken in. Even for the smartest of people.

Developing the skills to critically and fairly assess this kind of thing takes time I think and for those 'caught out' it's a good opportunity to toughen up their thinking skills.

It seems to me a narrow line between being too trusting and becoming cynical. It is an easy line to cross either way isn't it? Very Happy


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 3:55 pm

mac wrote:
obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

Hi obi - I'm doing OK thanks other than being embroiled in something similar on another website concerning honesty but in connection with erstwhile member here, Waller Joel.  

If you recall he disappeared from this website after being accused of being the troll MU!! but he's established himself online elsewhere as an expert on various matters spiritual.  I've watched there with concern but my expressing doubts about his authenticity and honesty led to a very hostile reaction from someone persuaded he's the 'real deal', forgetting or ignoring his similarities of behaviour to the troll who created mayhem on that website last year.  If he's not the same guy the similarities are remarkable!

In such situations as we see with KM (or WJ) whadya do?  Should we be concerned if conmen dupe the vulnerable and the willing?  Or just leave them to fend for themselves or enjoy the ride when they're willing participants?  Mostly concerned folk don't like others being taken advantage of so I think it's reasonable that we feel as we do about KM and that I feel as I do about WJ.  

If eventually we're proven wrong about either of the guys I'm prepared to admit it.

Sounds like you're doing what you think is right Mac. Who can do more? Don't use too much energy on it.
As a friend of mine once observed:"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, on the other hand, at least it knows where the water is if it gets thirsty" Very Happy

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:37 pm

..


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:53 pm

dont-like-frauds wrote:
obiwan wrote:
It is also possible that some mediums mix genuine phenomena with fraud.

I don´t really believe this. A genuine medium includes IMO truthfulness. There´s no reason to risk this.
This "mixed medium discussion" describes IMO the rearguard action of someone being debunked or on the way being debunked.
Maybe it´s a kind way to send cheaters home. Yes, why not? I love you

I understand your view.

There  does however seem to be some evidence to support the idea; investigators of the medium Eusapia Palladino found both genuine phenomena and fraud. She even admitted that she would cheat if permitted.

It may also be possible that mediums 'misbehave' when under the control of some other entity and exhibit fraudulent behaviour over which they have no control. I am not saying it is the case with KM but simply that it cannot always be ruled out.

I can understand people who take the position that once a medium is caught in fraud, that's the end of the matter. On the other hand one could argue that knowing a person has or may commit fraud, one can make provisions in the controls to reduce or eliminate the risk of this.

obiwan


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:03 pm

dont-like-frauds wrote:
obiwan wrote:
It is also possible that some mediums mix genuine phenomena with fraud.

I don´t really believe this. A genuine medium includes IMO truthfulness. There´s no reason to risk this.
This "mixed medium discussion" describes IMO the rearguard action of someone being debunked or on the way being debunked.
Maybe it´s a kind way to send cheaters home. Yes, why not? I love you

I'm unsure about this so-called 'mixed-mediumship' situation....  

I can see that certain mediums might be tempted to bolster their genuine mediumship for personal reasons although I don't ever find it acceptable.  Mediums are still human after all with all the strengths and weaknesses that go with it.  Some are more strong, more principled than others.  If someone's mediumship isn't as robust or reliable as he'd like perhaps there's a temptation to make it appear that it is strong and reliable, especially when the audience demands it after being charged a large entrance fee.

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by mac on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:09 pm

obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:
obiwan wrote:
mac wrote:The situation concerning Herr Mügge looks set to rumble along for quite some time yet.  Those who are persuaded by his performance make more noise than those who aren't and there seems to be no shortage of phenomenalists happy to pay for the performance he gives.

It's sad for those who go to see genuine mediumship but what can you do other than what we small few are doing already?  There's a saying that goes something like 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and that seems to be the case for this man thus far at least.  

He'll probably avoid in future any testing that calls into question his authenticity and honesty.  Provided his followers continue to follow him I expect he'll continue to ignore everyone else.

Hi Mac

Hope all is well.

Whilst I would never condone fraud, isn't there also an element of caveat emptor in this? Speaking personally, I know much better now than when I started to look into this subject, that one must be circumspect and think very carefully about what one hears or sees (or reads). It is prudent not to rush to judgement either way but to research and understand what one is seeing and how others have validated it in the past.

The problem sometimes, it seems to me, is that often people want the evidence to be true so much that they are reluctant to apply the same common-sense rules that they would apply in other areas of life. Once we 'own' the fact that a medium is genuine, it can be very difficult to admit the possibility of fraud or that we may have been taken-in. Then it becomes very easy to rationalise away any genuine concerns. There is also the threat of expulsion from the group if doubts are expressed- this is a powerful tool used by religious cults and fraudsters in many areas of daily life.

Of course the fraudulent medium is despicable but the sitters also bear some responsibility imho. If they cannot apply sufficient controls then it might be better to at least reserve judgement or better still, not participate. Innocent as lambs yes, but cautious as serpents too perhaps?

Just a thought.

Hi obi - I'm doing OK thanks other than being embroiled in something similar on another website concerning honesty but in connection with erstwhile member here, Waller Joel.  

If you recall he disappeared from this website after being accused of being the troll MU!! but he's established himself online elsewhere as an expert on various matters spiritual.  I've watched there with concern but my expressing doubts about his authenticity and honesty led to a very hostile reaction from someone persuaded he's the 'real deal', forgetting or ignoring his similarities of behaviour to the troll who created mayhem on that website last year.  If he's not the same guy the similarities are remarkable!

In such situations as we see with KM (or WJ) whadya do?  Should we be concerned if conmen dupe the vulnerable and the willing?  Or just leave them to fend for themselves or enjoy the ride when they're willing participants?  Mostly concerned folk don't like others being taken advantage of so I think it's reasonable that we feel as we do about KM and that I feel as I do about WJ.  

If eventually we're proven wrong about either of the guys I'm prepared to admit it.

Sounds like you're doing what you think is right Mac. Who can do more? Don't use too much energy on it.
As a friend of mine once observed:"you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, on the other hand, at least it knows where the water is if it gets thirsty" Very Happy

I hope I'm doing the right thing, obi. It's not easy getting the balance right between standing up and being counted - even when I get in trouble - and standing back and leaving a situation where folk are being suckered... I had avoided spending any energy on the issue for a couple of months or so but eventually I thought I had to say my piece as I find it hard to keep my mouth shut all the time! I had some support but there's a lot going on behind the scenes so I've backed away again for a time to let the dust settle.

Time will tell if I get involved again...
Wink

mac


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by dont-like-frauds on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:20 pm

..


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Re: Investigation into the Mediumship of Kai Muegge

Post by obiwan on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:50 pm

dont-like-frauds wrote:
obiwan wrote:

I understand your view.

There  does however seem to be some evidence to support the idea; investigators of the medium Eusapia Palladino found both genuine phenomena and fraud. She even admitted that she would cheat if permitted.

It may also be possible that mediums 'misbehave' when under the control of some other entity and exhibit fraudulent behaviour over which they have no control. I am not saying it is the case with KM but simply that it cannot always be ruled out.

I can understand people who take the position that once a medium is caught in fraud, that's the end of the matter. On the other hand one could argue that knowing a person has or may commit fraud, one can make provisions in the controls to reduce or eliminate the risk of this.

I just prefer to go to the circus then or attend a good magician show - it´s easier, cheaper, more honest and better concerning the tricks! rabbit
If i were spirit, i wouldn´t choose a "mixed medium" - it´s just a waste of time and energy.... bom

Maybe spirits (if they exist) are making the best use they can of whoever is available with the right abilities.

obiwan


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