Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by obiwan on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:36 pm

The thing that that I find curious about the Helen Duncan pictures is that they are so bad, how could anyone think they were good evidence, even if they were produced as claimed?

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:04 pm

obiwan wrote:The thing that that I find curious about the Helen Duncan pictures is that they are so bad, how could anyone think they were good evidence, even if they were produced as claimed?

The user MU!! has written that he believes those photos are real, his first post in this thread and instead of looking over the evidence, he has decided to personally attack me. This is the problem when one sees pieces of evidence against their belief system. You ask how could anyone think they were good evidence even if they were real, there is no answer. It is a form of true believer syndrome to believe such photos are genuine, the true believer syndrome is a person's refusal to disbelieve something even after it has been unequivocally disproven.

The only explanation to why those ectoplasms look like dolls from the spiritualist point of view has been put forward by Michael E. Tymn, Tymn claims those ectoplasms were "telepathically" sent to the mediums mind. It is hard to take Tymn seriously. Again a true case of true believer syndrome.

This is his explanation of why the ectoplasm looks like dolls:

As I understand it from other research in this area, the discarnate must visualize his or her old self and project that image into the ectoplasm. The ability of discarnates to do this apparently varies as much as artistic ability varies among incarnates. While some people have artistic talents and might do a good self portrait, my self-portrait would look more ridiculous than the Duncan materialization above."

"If you had to telepathically project an image of yourself to someone, what would the self-image be based on? What you see when shaving or applying make-up in the morning or a good photograph of yourself? I’m pretty sure that I would visualize myself based on a 40-year-old photograph. I know that when I sometimes look in the mirror I wonder who it is looking back at me and that person in the mirror does not match the more idealized likeness I have of myself. And I know that when I think of my brother, who died in an accident 40 years ago, I picture him as he appeared in a high-school graduation photo, not as he appeared in some fleeting moment in our interaction during his lifetime.

Keep in mind also that before photography and quality mirrors, many people had no clear-cut idea as to what they looked like. If you had no photographs of yourself from your childhood, would you know what you looked like at age 7 or 10? I don’t think I would.

That is how irrational some modern spiritualists are, the photos are dolls, but convinced spiritualists like Tymn will not admit this, so claim they only look like dolls becuase they were telepathic images. NUTS!

and Tymn has been debunked anyway becuase the police found all those dolls at the house of duncan lol, they wern't telepathic images, they were very real home made dolls, you can even see how they were glued together.




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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:57 pm

MU!! wrote:Seriously, are you guys bored giving this pseudoskeptical troll one moment of your time? Sleep

To members of this forum, MU!! recently sent me an email but it was plagiarism from someone else's review and he had pretended that he had written it himself. It would be interesting if you can explain your actions MU!! First the personal attacks and now plagiarism, well you certainly have revealed what sort of person you are!

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:59 pm

LeroyC can you answer my question which I wrote on the previous page, if you can? Cheers

I have questions to ask you. Do insects, plants or bacteria have spirits and do they enter the spirit world? If your answer is no, then please explain why. Why do mediums in seance room never report dinosaurs, neanderthal men etc?

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by obiwan on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:22 pm

Hi forests

I would certainly agree that the photos you included are not good evidence of ectoplasm or of paranormal phenomena.

Where we seem to part company is that you appear to be saying that because of such frauds, none of the phenomena reported are genuine. I do not follow your logic. Please explain, unless I haven misunderstood the point you're making.

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:44 pm

obiwan wrote:Hi forests

I would certainly agree that the photos you included are not good evidence of ectoplasm or of paranormal phenomena.

Where we seem to part company is that you appear to be saying that because of such frauds, none of the phenomena reported are genuine. I do not follow your logic. Please explain, unless I haven misunderstood the point you're making.

Becuase we have the photographs of physical mediumship, and every single one reveals fake ectoplasm or fake materializations or other tricks. If you search online, you will find photographs from practically every physical medium. I must of seen about 400 or so of these photos, they are all fake. Every single piece of ectoplasm or materialization is totally bogus and does not at all look realistic. There is no reason to take it seriously. And to back this up with have many scientific reports which have caught these mediums cheating. And as I said if these materializations actually do occur, then why are not bacteria, insects, plants, dinosaurs or fish etc coming through? Why can they not be performed in light conditions? Why cannot everyone perform a materialization?

If materializations are true, then why can't people just walk down the street or go into their back yard and do it? Why are these materializations not being peformed in nature, why is it only in a dark room? It's all bogus mate, if you spent some time in nature you would see this but spiritualists never do, they have shut themselves off from the real world and base their fantasies on fraud performed in dark little rooms.

Explain to me how algae, bacteria, fish and insects fit into spiritualism. Spiritualists have no response. Also explain the dinosaurs. Are there neanderthal men in this spirit world? If so, then why do mediums never claim to contact them? There are too many things which do not make sense in spiritualism.

I have only ever seen one book written by a medium claiming animals and insects make it into the spirit world. The religion of spiritualism is anthropocentric nonsense.

If physical mediumship was true, then why can't it be proven in scientific conditions. You need to think this through. All you guys can do is invoke conspiracy theories like the spiritualist Michael Roll who says that science has a materialistic agenda to supress anything spiritual. Sorry but you are wrong, if there was scientific evidence for spiritualism, then it would be all over the news and be a scientific breakthrough. No such thing has ever occured, instead we have the same old dark rooms, fraud mediums and gullible believers.

Over 100 years investigation into spiritualism, the mediums have been given so much time and opportunity after opportunity to prove their ability but everytime it never happens. Instead we just get a bunch of fraud.

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by obiwan on Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:01 pm

forests wrote:
obiwan wrote:Hi forests

I would certainly agree that the photos you included are not good evidence of ectoplasm or of paranormal phenomena.

Where we seem to part company is that you appear to be saying that because of such frauds, none of the phenomena reported are genuine. I do not follow your logic. Please explain, unless I haven misunderstood the point you're making.

Becuase we have the photographs of physical mediumship, and every single one reveals fake ectoplasm or fake materializations or other tricks. If you search online, you will find photographs from practically every physical medium. I must of seen about 400 or so of these photos, they are all fake. Every single piece of ectoplasm or materialization is totally bogus and does not at all look realistic. There is no reason to take it seriously. And to back this up with have many scientific reports which have caught these mediums cheating. And as I said if these materializations actually do occur, then why are not bacteria, insects, plants, dinosaurs or fish etc coming through? Why can they not be performed in light conditions? Why cannot everyone perform a materialization?

Ok well I don't agree that all photographs of physical mediumship look like the examples you have presented here. I have seen photos of Leslie Flint for example which, although not conclusive because of what they are, ie photos, do not look fraudulent to me and look nothing like the examples you cite here. Are they proof of ectoplasm - no of course not, can they be safely dismissed as fraud? I don't think so.

Why might a person take it seriously? Because of the research, reports and observations made by many people. Does that make it a fact? Of course not, should we reject these reports because you don't view them the same way? Of course not. We should form our own view. It seems to me that you're picking the examples that support your own view and rejecting the testimony of those who have a different view, some of whom claim to have witnessed such phenomena directly.

forests wrote:If materializations are true, then why can't people just walk down the street or go into their back yard and do it? Why are these materializations not being peformed in nature, why is it only in a dark room? It's all bogus mate, if you spent some time in nature you would see this but spiritualists never do, they have shut themselves off from the real world and base their fantasies on fraud performed in dark little rooms.


I suspect that you already know the answers given to these questions. Whether you accept them or not is up to you. If you don't know the answers given, I would be very surprised as the literature is replete with them.

forests wrote:Explain to me how algae, bacteria, fish and insects fit into spiritualism. Spiritualists have no response. Also explain the dinosaurs. Are there neanderthal men in this spirit world? If so, then why do mediums never claim to contact them? There are too many things which do not make sense in spiritualism.

Firstly, I can't answer that as I am not a spiritualist. Such concepts are considered in the teachings of Silver Birch, if you think they are worth anything. To say that such explanations have not been given would be an error.

What do you mean by "explain the dinosaurs"?

Why would a dinosaur materialise? To what purpose? Why would a Neanderthal man communicate to the present world? What would be the purpose? Who would be able to validate it?

forests wrote:I have only ever seen one book written by a medium claiming animals and insects make it into the spirit world. The religion of spiritualism is anthropocentric nonsense.


I don't know which books you have read but I have seen extensive references to survival of certain types of animal in many books and in the recordings of Flint.

forests wrote:If physical mediumship was true, then why can't it be proven in scientific conditions. You need to think this through. All you guys can do is invoke conspiracy theories like the spiritualist Michael Roll who says that science has a materialistic agenda to supress anything spiritual. Sorry but you are wrong, if there was scientific evidence for spiritualism, then it would be all over the news and be a scientific breakthrough. No such thing has ever occured, instead we have the same old dark rooms, fraud mediums and gullible believers.

What do you mean by "scientific conditions"? If you mean in a laboratory there are many phenomena accepted by science which cannot be replicated or reproduced on demand, or whose mechanism isn't known. That doesn't mean they don't occur. In any event, I don't see how the questions you raise constitute proof that such phenomena do not exist, as you seem to assert.

forests wrote:Over 100 years investigation into spiritualism, the mediums have been given so much time and opportunity after opportunity to prove their ability but everytime it never happens. Instead we just get a bunch of fraud.

This is a matter of opinion. The archives of the SPR are packed with evidence that mediumship may occur. There are also some excellent studies and treatments of earlier research. Do I think you should read them and believe? absolutely not! On the other hand, given the volume and quality of research I cannot see how any reasonable person can be as certain as you seem to be that such phenomena are always fraudulent and that mediumship cannot occur. You seem to be making sweeping generalisation which weaken the stronger points you are making.

obiwan


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by mac on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:49 am

As always I am bowled over by the wide knowledge and deep understanding of my duck friend - and his ability to use them so effectively in response to the points raised here in this long running thread.

One day, my good friend, I hope you find what you've been seeking such a long time and I hope I'll still be around when it happens. Smile

mac


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by mac on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:53 am

Is forests tutored by Jon Donnis? There's a similarity of styles albeit without the polish of JD.....

mac


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by Admin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:24 am

You are anti-science if you are denying scientific works like that becuase those books report from the scientists who were actually there exposing the mediums in the flesh, but it does not matter... If you want to reject science for magical thinking that is up to you. Smile

These 4 writers are not scientists to take my references to suggest I am anti science is just trying to stir things up Internet Troll style. yeti

I am pro science and there are scientists who accept that something is going on which we do not understand.

Still we clearly will never changed a closed mind I am sure you would be happier posting on the Randi forums.

I think MU has every right to think those photos could be real and Spirit demonstrating something we do not yet understand. Apart from your unsubstantiated attack on Hamilton and casting aspersions about his sleazy behaviour (a charge which you throw around with gay abandon). You have given no evidence that it is tissue paper and cheesecloth. A claimed truth is not a real truth.

However, I can see that you fully intend to continue your rather preposterous and rude behaviour. For the life of me I cannot understand why you joined the forum and persist with these attacks. Actually the Davenports never admitted to anything except to just stopping claims their work involved Spirits from a very early age. Sadly too many Spiritualists remain convinced that they were real and the physical medium David Thompson has been tending the Sydney grave of the brother that died here. Anna Eva Fay was exactly the same she stopped any claims of spirit involvement quite early on but never admitted anything.

Once again you ignore points we make, which show that we are not gullible fools, but you still treat us that way a trifle offensive I feel and very impertinent. Indeed you walk away from many items that may be in favour of a Spiritualistic viewpoint. I note you now attack Alvarado as biased which is not surprising, I would imagine unless any researcher was a closed minded sceptic (an oxymoron really because by definition a true sceptic should have an open mind) you would reject any position they take. However, you appear to be having a lot of fun stirring the pot so you are welcome although I will be moving this thread shortly because it has all to do with views on physical phenomena and materialisation and nothing about thoughts on Spiritualism.
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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by Admin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:34 am

As suggested it is moved, as MU suggested maybe Forests should return to a sceptics forum


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by Admin on Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:51 am

Forests maybe you should read this very enlightening piece it may take you from the darkness of closed minded sceptic to a new place http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t2042-psychical-research-versus-pseudo-skepticism
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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by MU!! on Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:33 am

Admin wrote:As suggested it is moved, as MU suggested maybe Forests should return to a sceptics forum
Jim, it's the same problem that every discussion forum has when the so-called skeptics invade it. They are no more skeptics, i.e. people who have open minds in debate, than MU!! is a horse.

They, esepcailly this "forests" is a pseudoskeptic, a confirmed non-believer in the survival of death and the afterlife. I have no issue with his non-belief nor all that much with his attempts at purposefully intolerant troll-behavior.

But these pseudoskeptics who demand that proponents show their proofs also refuse to display their own. Instead they point to posts, half-truths, and innuendo as facts. When they are called on to match their claims, borrowed from JREF and other debunker-oriented Internet cesspools, they squeal and retort with more opinion andshouting worthless garbage.

Having spent an extraordinary amount of time on various forums where these tactics are repeated over and over again, it's such old, childish businees that I have come to disregarding their "message" as even the littlest time spent on them is too much time indeed.

MU!!


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:46 am

Explain to me how algae, bacteria, fish and insects fit into spiritualism. Spiritualists have no response. Also explain the dinosaurs. Are there neanderthal men in this spirit world? If so, then why do mediums never claim to contact them?

Admin can you explain how insects, fish, bacteria etc fit into spiritualism. Common descent is a proven fact, you would need to explain why you believe humans have spirits, but insects and other organisms do not. Please explain.

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:48 am




Having spent an extraordinary amount of time on various forums where these tactics are repeated over and over again.

MU!! if you want to be taken seriously, can you please explain why you believe the above dolls are spirits? On the Mind Energy forum you wrote that Helen Duncan's ectoplasm was real. Take a closer look:



You keep ignoring the question, why does it look like a doll?


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:52 am

They, esepcailly this "forests" is a pseudoskeptic, a confirmed non-believer in the survival of death and the afterlife.

To users on this forum, you can now see how dishonest MU!! is I have already written twice on this thread that I am not a skeptic and that I believe in survival of death and an afterlife. I am just honest enough to admit my belief, and not claim dolls or cheesecloth and other fraud is scientific evidence.

forests


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:55 am

Once again you ignore points we make, which show that we are not gullible fools, but you still treat us that way a trifle offensive I feel and very impertinent

Sorry but this is not true, I have responded to every point you have made. Even looking up your mediums you mention to me. But when ever I paste in a photo such as Eva C you are totally silent on the subject. You also have not responded to the questions about plants, insects and fish. You say you are a medium, so have you communicated with fish in the spirit world? Or is it only humans that survive in your view? If only humans survive you would need to explain why becuase common descent is true, and there was no God coming down specifically putting a spirit in humans. If this spirit exists then surely it exists in all organisms right? There is no basis for anthropocentricism.

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:01 am

Apart from your unsubstantiated attack on Hamilton and casting aspersions about his sleazy behaviour (a charge which you throw around with gay abandon). You have given no evidence that it is tissue paper and cheesecloth



um mate no, it is not me attacking hamilton. for crying out loud the photo reveals tissue paper! are you honestly going to claim that photo is real spirits??

even two other users agreed with me on this thread that such photos are bogus and not evidence for spiritualism.

1. Why does the photo look like tissue paper and cut out heads of paper?
2. Even if the photos were real why would they be that small coming out of someones mouth? And a skeleton coming through? LOL!

this is nuts if you actually believe such photos are real evidence for spirits. it is denialism of reality. it is not healthy.

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:08 am

Admin can you explain the sexual acts of Eva C? Also do you believe her ectoplasm penis was a real spirit? Why would a penis be materialising from the spirit world? I noticed you ignored this.

Secondly Notzing was a sexual maniac who with Eva Carrière (Eva C) would get up to all kinds of erotic and pornographic acts, he would enter his finger into the vagina of Eva C many times in a seance, and Eva C was totally naked and would pull these materializations out of her genital area which were shaped in the size of you guess what... these are the sorts of perverts that are in your spiritualist movement and who you are happy to quote from? Do some real research mate, this is your movement.

Here is a photo of some ectoplasm "materialization" that Notzing believed to be real (photo of Eva C).



As you can see her materialization fake ectoplasm is in the shape of a deflated, and disembodied penis. And some very graphic sexual things were discussed in the notes of Juliette Bisson, Eva's bisexual lover who would also get naked in her seances.

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:29 am

I would certainly agree that the photos you included are not good evidence of ectoplasm or of paranormal phenomena.

obiwan sadly your friends on this forum actually believe those photos of dolls and tissue paper are real spirits.

Also if you look through my posts nowhere have I personally attacked anyone, I may have stated believing in dolls as spirits is nuts but nowhere have I singled anyone out and attacked them, instead I am bombarded with attacks as trolling, being narrow minded, being opposed to the afterlife or being a pseudoskeptic - none of those things are true about me.

You talk about being open minded, but how can you be open minded if you believe tissue paper is evidence for spirits? And how can you be open minded if you ignore the scientists who caught these mediums in fraud?

As I explained a few pages back Mina Crandon's ectoplasm hand was discovered to be made of a piece of carved animal liver. Do you accept this fact admin? Even Mina Crandon's granddaughter accepts it. There is no way round the scientific debunking of these mediums. Do deny their evidence is to deny reality.

Heres another thing which you keep ignoring, the helen duncan dolls and other props were actually found in her seances by the police. Are you really going to deny this as well or invoke some kind of conspiracy theory. As I said there is no conspiracy, she was caught in fraud and there is no way round it. As devout spiritualists you should actually be angry at such fraudsters as Duncan for ruining your movement and making people laugh at it.

All people do these days is go onto google images and type medium or ectoplasm in and a tonne of silly photos come up looking like cheese cloth etc due to the increase in technology spiritualism is on the decline. 30 years ago those kinds of photographs were not around for people to see, but now the entire world can see them, it's all open.

As another user asked, even if those photos of dolls, newspaper cut outs or cheese-cloth were real, then why do they look like dolls in the first place? Note how the admin or MU!! cannot answer this.



Can you explain the above photo? It was one taken by Hamilton. Again why does it look like tissue paper and a cut out of someones head, and even if it was real, why is a tiny little head of a man popping out of a mediums mouth?

Last question which you refused to answer, why do these materializations not occur in daylight conditions, and if such a feat is possible then why can't we all do it? Why not just walk down the road and perform this feat or infront of millions to see? Why only in dark rooms? All reports of physical mediumship dropped after 1970, you need to ask yourself why. It is becuase technology has improved, these people can no longer get away with conning people. Note how michael roll has not had one physical medium come through and offer him their services, becuase infrared equipment and video cameras are going to be in place. Roll has been asking for a medium to come on for the last 40 years and no single medium has contacted him to do it.

Think this through, if physical mediumship was genuine then they would of come through by now and performed those tests and proven by science and to the world that such a thing is genuine. Instead no physical medium comes forward because the technology which would be in place would catch them in fraud. Is the admin of this site related to Victor Zammit, well Zammit for the last 20 years has been claiming the same thing as roll asking for a physical medium to prove their ability, so far nothing.

After all this, I am suprised why you still have your belief in physical mediumship. How can you keep on believing when all the facts point against your belief?

forests


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by bravo321uk on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:44 am

You know what I find interesting Forests,,, Is that right the way through this thread you have kept saying the same thing,,, "Look at the evidence" and yet from your postings this is something you clearly have not done,, even in your last post, you mention zammit and yet zammit is personally championing 2 current physical mediums that he has personally sat with,,, you mention roll... and yet he has personally sat with a physical medium and seen materialisation.. you seem to miss to mention that roll nearly got tests set up with this medium,,, one that didnt charge,, made nothing from the seances... and the only reason the medium pulled was because of the death threats they received.
You fail to mention the mediums who were never found to be a fraud like Alec harris
and more importantly you never mention the evidence that has been bought through these peoples mediumship...
yes those photos with helen duncan are naff.. but we were not there,, we do not know the what truly happend.. but what we do know is that evidence was bought through helens mediumship that was strong enough to make national security that be take notice.
But right the way through this you say evidence, evidence, evidence,, and yet you yourself have not researched the evidence... and this is very clear through the infancy of your enquiries.
Maybe go away and research the Evidence that has come through Mediumship,,,, which is the bigger picture here. Rather than have a little look at 100 year old pictures and make assumptions from them..




bravo321uk


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:58 am

bravo321uk wrote:You know what I find interesting Forests,,, Is that right the way through this thread you have kept saying the same thing,,, "Look at the evidence" and yet from your postings this is something you clearly have not done,, even in your last post, you mention zammit and yet zammit is personally championing 2 current physical mediums that he has personally sat with,,, you mention roll... and yet he has personally sat with a physical medium and seen materialisation.. you seem to miss to mention that roll nearly got tests set up with this medium,,, one that didnt charge,, made nothing from the seances... and the only reason the medium pulled was because of the death threats they received.
You fail to mention the mediums who were never found to be a fraud like Alec harris
and more importantly you never mention the evidence that has been bought through these peoples mediumship...
yes those photos with helen duncan are naff.. but we were not there,, we do not know the what truly happend.. but what we do know is that evidence was bought through helens mediumship that was strong enough to make national security that be take notice.
But right the way through this you say evidence, evidence, evidence,, and yet you yourself have not researched the evidence... and this is very clear through the infancy of your enquiries.
Maybe go away and research the Evidence that has come through Mediumship,,,, which is the bigger picture here. Rather than have a little look at 100 year old pictures and make assumptions from them..

You admit that the helen duncans photos are "naff" but three other users on this thread don't, they claim they are real spirits. You also say research these mediums, I have. Ok, let's look at the case of Helen Duncan, the main book on the topic filled with reports from witnesses, police and others is this book Helena Normanton. The Trial of Mrs. Duncan Edited with a Foreword by C. E. Bechhofer Roberts, Jarrolds Publishers, 1945. No spiritualist has ever read it, becuase you don't want to read about the evidence which convicted Duncan. Duncan was found with props in her seance, there is no conspiracy, she was caught in fraud and rightly sent to prison.

There is also a myth spouted by Michael Roll and Victor Zammit that Duncan died becuase the police disturbed her trance, utter nonsense, firstly she died three months after her seance was raided by police. Contrary to what spiritualists have written there was nothing odd about the death of Duncan and it was not caused by her "trance" being disturbed by the police. Duncan's medical records showed that she had a long history of ill-health and as early as 1944 she was described as an obese woman who could only move slowly as she suffered from heart trouble.

Right and something else. Duncan's former maid Mary McGinlay confessed in detail to having aided Duncan in her mediumship tricks, and Duncan's husband admitted that the ectoplasm materialisations to be the result of regurgitation and fraud. So we have two confessions even from her husband. Name me a single spiritualist book that these confessions are documented in? They are not becuase the spiritualists ignore any evidence against their belief system. There is no way round it, Duncan was a fraud, end of story. To claim Duncan was genuine is to deny the facts. I have reseached these mediums far more than anyone else on this forum, you guys just ignore any data which convicts a medium as a fraud, this is dishonest.

You admit the photos look like dolls, the dolls were found at the seance of Duncan, we have two confessions and many witness reports that she was a fraud, what more do you want? To keep on believing is just dishonest.

I would also point out as the admin even said this is a thread about physical mediumship, I am not discussing mental mediumship, or infact any modern mediums, if you want a debunking of recent mental mediums then visit the Jon Donnis website where he has put a lot of effort into debunking and exposing the tricks of recent mental mediums.

forests


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by obiwan on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:47 am

Forests. I have responded twice to comments you have made in here, I took quite a bit of time to do it, you don't even acknowledge the points I made. I am out of this conversation it's a waste of time.


Last edited by obiwan on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by obiwan on Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:49 am

mac wrote:As always I am bowled over by the wide knowledge and deep understanding of my duck friend - and his ability to use them so effectively in response to the points raised here in this long running thread.

One day, my good friend, I hope you find what you've been seeking such a long time and I hope I'll still be around when it happens. Smile

Hi mac
Thanks for your kind comments. I'd genuflect but fear my pants would split Very Happy
Hope all is well in your corner of the world.

obiwan


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Re: Fraud mediums in spiritualism An argument with a Sceptic

Post by forests on Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:18 pm

obiwan wrote:Forests. I have responded twice to comments you have made in here, I took quite a bit of time to do it, you don't even acknowledge the points I made. I am out of this conversation it's a waste of time.

Obiwan the problem is, is that you are refusing to answer about the documented fraud of Eva C, Helen Duncan, Eusapia Palladino and other mediums I have exposed as fraud. Do you accept that they were frauds? You said yourself their materializations are bogus and not evidence for spiritualism, but elsewhere you are claiming physical mediumship is actually valid. Can you list some of your evidence? So far nothing, no photos.

Ok well I don't agree that all photographs of physical mediumship look like the examples you have presented here. I have seen photos of Leslie Flint for example which, although not conclusive because of what they are, ie photos, do not look fraudulent to me and look nothing like the examples you cite here. Are they proof of ectoplasm - no of course not, can they be safely dismissed as fraud? I don't think so.

Can you please paste in some "genuine" ectoplasm photographs then? Please show me ones that do not look like fraud.

Firstly, I can't answer that as I am not a spiritualist. Such concepts are considered in the teachings of Silver Birch, if you think they are worth anything. To say that such explanations have not been given would be an error.

The teachings of Silver Birch claimed that animals have a "group soul" i. e. not an individual spirit, and he talked about those entities merging on an astral plane or something, his beliefs were very Theosphical, and he invoked a "God" to explain why, it would probably explain it considering that maurice barbanell was well known for reading occult books, sorry but his beliefs were not scientific, the entity silver birch was an alternate personality from his subconscious.

Anyway this is all contradiction between what other spiritualists have written becuase some spiritualists have written animals do not survive death and others say animals do survive death. You do realise this is just more evidence against spiritualism? All reports of the spirit world by mediums contradict eachother. No mention of plants, insects or othe organisms though by spiritualists and only little mention of animals. The religion of spiritualism is anthropocentric. Does a fish enter the spirit world? Please answer, does it's spirit enter the spirit world through some kind of dimension from under the water?

Why would a Neanderthal man communicate to the present world?


There are no reports of dinosaurs or neanderthal men or hominids by spiritualists, are you claiming these things do not exist in the spirit world? If there are dinsoaurs in the spirit world, then do their bodies take a different form? Because wouldn't some of those carnivorous dinosaurs be eating human spirits? Think your beliefs through.

The archives of the SPR are packed with evidence that mediumship may occur

Then list some of this evidence, by the way you are talking one would assume you have not researched this topic. The SPR is no friend to spiritualism, they caught most spiritualists in fraud, and only a minority of SPR members (most the early ones) believed in spiritualism.

as I am not a spiritualist

You are not a spiritualist, but you accept that mediumship and physical mediumship are genuine? That does not really make sense, I suppose some researchers have claimed mediumship is the result of ESP but it appears that does not fit your belief. So you reject the spirit hypothesis, then what do you belief? UFOs are behind it? Or do you believe something else?


forests


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