50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

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50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Trance Mediumship
With regard to its belonging within the category of either Mental Mediumship or Physical Mediumship, Trance Medumship as such is a bit of a 'Grey Area'. There are indeed so many different 'Levels' and depths of trance, between the state of being 'Overshadowed' and being in 'Deep Trance', where a medium is totally unconscious and unaware of anything that is happening within themselves and around them. I believe that it is better to simply refer to any level of trance as an 'altered state', as this is a more accurate description of every level.

It can be argued logically in most cases that, even if an entranced medium is aware of every word that is spoken through him or her, the medium has no physical control over the content of what is said. Other than when a medium is in a very light trance (overshadowed), this is essentially an accurate statement.

If this is indeed the case, then it can further be argued that - since the medium has no physical control over the content of what is spoken through their own larynx whilst they are in this altered state - the process of a spirit person speaking through them in this way is an aspect of physical mediumship.

Sometimes we have to be careful not to mix up the terms which are used for a type of physical phenomena with a trance communicaton through the human larynx of a medium. Several experienced psychic researchers, for instance, who have gone for a private sitting with a trance medium who advertises 'direct voice', only to discover that instead of physical phenomena, they have simply been treated to trance communication through a medium.

However, when sitting specifically for physical phenomena in the more traditional way - ectoplasmic-based - the single physical medium involved is usually in a 'deep trance' state. There are exceptions to this; the famous Independent Direct Voice medium Leslie Flint comes to mind here, as Leslie was fully awake during his sittings and was able to join in the conversations with the spirit voices that occurred through his mediumship.

When a medium is capable of producing full ectoplasm-based materialisations, however, it does seem essential for them to be in a deep trance throughout this process.

So it would seem that trance is involved in both physical and mental mediumship in any case, no matter what level of trance is used. Is it not just the own persons perspective view on the matter of where they place the trance into either physical or mental?

I also know of alot of snu and affiliated churches that do accept and even show physical mediumship and trance is included in this. I think it is excepted or becoming excepted as part of a kind of new age spiritualism - the bringing of the two together as a whole - just as it used to be when mediumship first started.

It would be interesting to find out others views as well.

E A
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by Lis on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:13 am

earth angel wrote:Trance Mediumship

If this is indeed the case, then it can further be argued that - since the medium has no physical control over the content of what is spoken through their own larynx whilst they are in this altered state - the process of a spirit person speaking through them in this way is an aspect of physical mediumship.

E A

I personally believe, as a mental and trance medium with over 46 years experience, that it is incorrect to class trance states, even deep trance as an aspect of physical mediumship EXCEPT in the sense that ALL mediumship is in some respects physical as even in mental mediumship the mind of the medium is being physically influenced by the spirit communicating - often to the extent that the medium experiences the physical symptoms that were associated with the spirit's passing.

Physical mediumship is, from my perspective, a very specific and defined form of mediumship which produces physical, objective phenomena, that is independent of the actions of the medium except for the fact that the energy required to produce the phenomena may be drawn from the physical form of the medium and utilized by the spirit realms. The difference between trance - and physical phenomena mediumship is quite clear.

Lis

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by nick pettitt on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:59 am

I would put trance mediumship into the physical mediumship category as from a sitter's point of view they are communicating directly with spirit whereas in mental mediumship they are communicating with the medium who is relaying what he/she is receiving from spirit to them...

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:43 am

Traditionally it has always been Mental Mediumship which is how I wopuld tend to accept it, no physical phenomena.
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by normy on Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:51 am

Trance is mental mediumship and I have never heard of any evidence it is physical except on here Smile
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by petal34 on Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:58 am

A trance is a state of mind where the mind and consciousness is engaged fully on a subject which renders the rest of the physical body imobile.
My interpretation anyway.
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:42 am

Hi all. Good to see this being discussed.
As it is a grey area, trance does and can fall into either or both catergories depending upon the individuals own personal beliefs. Alot of physical mediums do class trance as PM. i know in ursuala roberts book she quotes it as a part of physical phenomena.
So it seems that different mediums have different views and concepts which is great. its good to throw ideas around and discuss these things.
E A
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by nick pettitt on Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:12 am

if you're just talking about 'trance' then it can apply to both MM and PM, as a Mental Medium can be in trance when delivering a clairvoyant message but I reckon if a spirit personality is speaking through a medium whether he/she is overshadowed or in deep trance then that's gotta be PM because the sitter is talking directly to the spirit personality, the spirit voice has become physical...

just to confuse the issue further what about when a spirit personality speaking directly through a medium delivers a message from another spirit personalty behind the scenes... Neutral

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by normy on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:16 pm

earth angel wrote:Hi all. Good to see this being discussed.
As it is a grey area, trance does and can fall into either or both catergories depending upon the individuals own personal beliefs. Alot of physical mediums do class trance as PM. i know in ursuala roberts book she quotes it as a part of physical phenomena.
So it seems that different mediums have different views and concepts which is great. its good to throw ideas around and discuss these things.
E A

Which PM's class trance as PM? I don't know of any myself.
Ursula Robert's book "All about mediumship", Chapter 15 is Physical mediumship, it does not say trance is PM, only that if you sit specifically for PM you will often lapse in to a trance. All her examples of PM are of objective phenomena, EA, so I don't know where your idea comes from. Where are your sources please?
On trance, she says the deepest state is known as entrancement, a blending or fusing of the mind of the medium with that of the entrancing spirit. She makes it clear that only clairvoyants can see any influence of spirit round the medium, it's not objective.
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:40 pm

she says that trance is a small part of PM.
When i trance i dont have any idea of what is happening or said and dont hear anything. i step back out of my body to allow the spirit to enter to talk through me. its like im not there asleep almost. deep trance. it is physical mediumship. not all PM includes phenomena.
As previously stated it is dependent upon the persons own opinion.
This is also taught as PM through AFC and SNU.
Regards
E A
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by normy on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:48 pm

I'm sorry EA, but I regard it as a fact, not an opinion, that trance is not PM, therefore I am wasting my time discussing this. If it's taught as PM through AFC and SNU, it shows how ignorant they are in my opinion. Trance is a different discipline altogether, from all the sources I've checked.
Regards, normy
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:49 pm

quote taken from http://www.fst.org/trance.htm

What is Trance Communication?
By Rev. Simeon Stefanidakis
Trance mediumship or channeling, like so many other forms of spirit communication, is very much misunderstood. In recent years, a number of mediums have called themselves "trance" channels, when, in fact, they were not working in a genuine trance condition. This has been a source of great confusion for many people.

When spirit links with a medium, the spirit communicator exerts various degrees of control, or overshadows the consciousness of the medium to a greater or lesser degree. This varies, depending upon the intent and conditions of communication, as well as the ability of the medium to lend himself or herself to be overshadowed or controlled.

Trance is considered the strongest degree of control. Yet, even here, there are various degrees of trance control: from light trance to very deep trance. Deep trance is used primarily in physical mediumship.

There are many factors which indicate genuine trance control, and parapsychologists have used various tests to determine whether, in fact, a medium is under trance control; and, if so, to what degree.

Genuine trance is a strong sharing of mental and physical energies and consciousness between the medium and the spirit communicator. There is generally -- although not always -- manifested, within the medium, the following:

A slowing of the heart rate.

A slow, deep, and steady breathing pattern.

No rapid eye movement, or REM.

A lowering of body temperature.

A greatly reduced reaction to touch and pain.

Various degrees of unconsciousness.

Furthermore, because in the trance condition the spirit communicator is speaking directly through the consciousness of the medium -- rather than the medium relating what is being mentally given to him or her -- the voice pattern, inflection, and general manner of speech differ from that normally exhibited by the medium.

Finally, much research has been conducted around the language patterns of dialogue exhibited during trance communication. There is very often a broken speech pattern, a reversal of sentence structure, and an overall change in grammar usage. This is very evident in the Cayce readings, the Seth material, in Eileen Garrett's trance communications, and in our own Rev. Stephen Fulton's trance communications.

One final point needs to be mentioned: that of control. What does it mean to be controlled by spirit? First of all, it does NOT mean that the medium is, in any way, possessed by a spirit personality. Possession -- or attachment (apparently a new and, in my opinion, disturbing buzz word) -- is extremely rare. Nor does it mean that the medium leaves his or her body and the spirit enters therein.

Mediumistic control means a sharing of mental and physical energies between the medium and spirit communicator or operator. Control signifies a telepathic rapport between the two. How strongly en rapport they are determines the degree of control. Control can range from inspired thought, to conscious control, to light trance, to deep trance, to very deep trance. It all depends upon the work at hand and the mental and physical energies available to the spirit communicator or operator.
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:50 pm

so it would seem that it is BOTH and not one or the other according to the above article. As it is stated that deep trance is known as physical mediumship. light trance is mental mediumship. So it is as previously stated each owns personal opinion. confusing some might say?
E A


Last edited by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:58 pm

I found this also from james van praagh -


A medium is a psychic who has fine-tuned his or her extrasensory perception and can interface with the spirits in other dimensions. They are able to feel and/or hear thoughts, voices or mental impressions from the spirit world. A medium is able to become completely receptive to the higher frequency or energies on which spirit people vibrate.

Mediumship is much more involved than psychicism because a medium is opening him/herself to a discarnate energy. Mediumship itself can be broken down into two distinct categories. The first and most common type is mental mediumship, which is how I work with my abilities. I communicate with spirits while fully conscious. As the word mental denotes, this form of mediumship utilizes the mind - the intuitive mind, not the rational or logical part.

The second type of mediumship is physical mediumship and it differs from mental mediumship. In physical mediumship the actually physical body is used to get information from spirit. In mental mediumship only the mind of the medium is utilized. Channeling is a well-known form of physical mediumship. A trance medium is another type of physical medium. A trance medium is someone who goes into a trance state to relay messages from the other side.
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by bravo321uk on Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:49 pm

Normy the snu or the afc do not teach that trance is physical Mediumship.. they teach that it falls into the control bracket of mental mediumship..
Earth I am really sorry but you have this all wrong.... Trance is mental mediumship and that is a FACT... The fact that trance is a mind to mind link between spirit and the medium should tell you that
And from reading the following statement made by you...

" i step back out of my body to allow the spirit to enter to talk through me. its like im not there asleep almost."

Simply tells me that you do not understand the mechanics of Trance, The following is what silver birch says about trance.(taken from another part of the forum) and to be honest, I dont think we can compare silver birch with james van p..


"I am not inside this body. Around this body there is an aura - you know the aura is what is depicted in the pictures of saints - and I come into that aura with my aura. But your pictures only show the aura as white. In reality, it is full of colours, and these colours are a complete indication of everything that you do, what you think and what you are. Those who can see the aura know you better than you know yourselves. They know the sort of person you are - what you think, what you have achieved, where you lack and where you succeed. The aura is the permanent record of everything that you are.

I come as close as I can, whilst the instrument makes himself receptive. He must not set up any vibrations because they disturb. He must be quiet. If he runs about I cannot come into his aura. As he sits passively, so his consciousness slips away and I, harmonizing myself with the aura, try to achieve a perfect union. The more perfect the union between his aura and mine, the more perfect is the control that I have over him."

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by earth angel on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:41 pm

thanks bravo - im only quoting others tho. as im trying to understand this all for myself still.
this area is still relativley new to me compared to the mental mediumship ive always done over the years.
but the snu churches and course ive seen and mediums stated in these places keep calling it physical mediumship.
maybe it will always remain a grey area and between the both.???? and maybe people will always have their own personal view????
And thanks to silver birch for that info.
E A
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by Lis on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:44 am

Earth Angel,

Rev. Simeon Stefanidakis states "Deep trance is used primarily in physical mediumship" That is not saying trance IS physical mediumship. It merely means that for the production of physical phenomena mediumship the medium will usually enter into a deep trance state to allow the phenomena to be produced. The deep trance state is also used to bring through words of wisdom or evidence of survival that does not involve ANY physical phenomena. Indeed many deep trance mediums have never attempted or produced physical phenomena as part of their mediumship and therefore Stefanidakis is actually incorrect when he claims that the deep trance state is primarily used in physical mediumship.

Quite apart from the fact that Stefanidakis is now in prison after being found guilty of owning, producing and distributing child pornography, his words must not be regarded as the final authority.

As for James Van Praagh's comments - I am astonished. First he claims: " In physical mediumship the actually physical body is used to get information from spirit." It is??? Really, in what way?? Would someone like to explain just how the physical body is used to get information from spirit?

Second, Van Praagh states "A trance medium is another type of physical medium" - and the rational for that position appears to be because a trance medium goes into a trance state to relay messages from the other side. Well that is also exactly what a mental medium does - enters into an altered state to relay messages from the other side.

Trance is a form of mental mediumship. While it can be used in physical phenomena seances to allow the medium to enter a sufficiently somnambulistic state to facilitate the production of, for example, ectoplasm, it does not mean that the trance state is in itself physical mediumship.

This is not about matters of "opinion" at all, it is about the fundamental nature of the different forms of mediumship and in what way those forms of mediumship operate.

Lis
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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by nick pettitt on Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:55 am

when the medium in our development circle does trance mediumship in the light she has a build-up of ectoplasm in her throat which changes her voice...

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by Lis on Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:19 am

That is interesting Nick. May I ask whether this 'ectoplasm' build-up that you mention occurs in the medium's throat is actually visible, or is this something that you have been told by spirit guide through the entranced medium?

I only ask as I am well aware of changes to voice while in trance resulting in a distinctly different sound as well as changes in intonation and also manner of speech, however, I have never understood such changes to be caused by a build-up of ectoplasm, rather merely the spirit drawing in close enough to utilise the medium's vocal chords.

Lis

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by nick pettitt on Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:55 am

Lis wrote:That is interesting Nick. May I ask whether this 'ectoplasm' build-up that you mention occurs in the medium's throat is actually visible, or is this something that you have been told by spirit guide through the entranced medium?

I only ask as I am well aware of changes to voice while in trance resulting in a distinctly different sound as well as changes in intonation and also manner of speech, however, I have never understood such changes to be caused by a build-up of ectoplasm, rather merely the spirit drawing in close enough to utilise the medium's vocal chords.

Lis

no it's not visible Lis, we have been told by the control through the entranced medium that they bring the ectoplasm up into the throat. The control is able to talk through the medium in this way for at least 30minutes and when he withdraws she comes back quickly and talks easily in her natural voice feeling no discomfort just a feeling that her throat has been manipulated. If she tries to emulate the voice in her natural state she can't and trying to leaves her with a sore throat and hoarse voice....

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Re: 50/50 split on the subject of "What is trance?"

Post by Lis on Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:08 pm

Thanks for your response Nick. Most interesting.

Lis
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