Survivalist?

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Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:57 pm

Bet it's on here already but I can't use Search.
Could someone explain the difference between a survivalist and a Spiritualist please?
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by bravo321uk on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:01 pm

some1 that believes in the continuation of life.... but doesnt have the religious belief of a spiritualist....
many people believe that life goes on,... but dont believe in god ect...
dunno if thats the answer your looking for.... but thats my general understanding,,,,

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Re: Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:25 pm

Ta. Do they have an association or similar that they join do you know?
Seems to be along the lines of Secularist Spiritualists here in England they are a looseish federation.
Online search turned up loads on militias and end of the world as we know it survival types.
Cheers Bravo you are a toff sir.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by bravo321uk on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:43 pm

Im not so sure they have a federation.... seems to be something just thrown around to give a person a feeling of identity... maybe some one else will know.
I have friends who are working mediums that describe themselves as survivalists. and they do not belong to a federation of any sorts, but who knows.. if there isnt one im sure some1 will soon cotton onto that and turn it into some cash cow sooner or later

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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:54 pm

The nearest may be the campaign for philosophical freedom. Michael Roll believes in the continuation of life but is not a Spiritualist. Ron Pearson an associate of his can also be seen explaining life in a way that an atheist may well accept.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:00 am

Synchronicity or wot?
Just mucking out cat litter tray before bed and found a piece in PW about it.
Looks a bit arid for my taste.
May be coming to a place where I'll think along the lines of
if it's in a PW article then it's possibly just a bit iffy.
Survivalism idea seems rather rude in a way.
Enjoying a gift without acknowledging the giver.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:06 am

Oh yeah We chatted about CPF a while ago. Can see the idea. Secularist CPF Survivalist same sort of beastie.
They should maybe form a church and formulate doctrines.
Ooops...
I mean Association and Principles.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:15 am

We got their first and then found Religion
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:56 am

It all kinda comes down to faith in the end. The poor chap writing on survivalism in PW is obviously a true believer. His talismans are somewhat outdated science of the quantum persuasion. Nothng he especially understands simply words of apparent power to be invoked.
All a bit sad really. Chap name of Rose wrote a criminally neglected book about ten years ago
Intellectual life of the British Working Classes
a contestable idea of his was that back in the day working class thinkers got their expensive books second hand. Cast offs in other words that had been replaced on bourgeois library shelves by the latest ideas.
Yer scientistic survivalists seem to be in a similar predicament. Still if it floats their boat and gets em outa bed of a morning with a song in their heart and a smile on their lips then it's as good a religion to them as anything else would be that did the same.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Left Behind on Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:19 pm

I've noticed the term is often used by Spiritualists in a pejorative sense, Peter, to describe someone who believes in survival of the soul/psyche after bodily death, and in traditional Spiritualist methods of demonstrating such survival: but who either doesn't claim Spiritualism as his religious faith, or, (in the opinion of the one casting aspersions), isn't living his life according to proper Spiritualist principles.

Saw a video one in which one of ACD's sons (Adrian) claimed that Sir Arthur HATED the term "spiritualist", and preferred to be called a "survivalist". Not saying that's so: just saying that that's what the son said.

I suppose I'm a survivalist, in a sense. Asked my religion, I'd say "Christian" or if I were allowed to expand on that, "Christian Spiritualist".

I don't think that what we've learned from Spiritualism disproves Christianity. I do think that it disproves much traditional Christian dogma, and a literal interpretation of the Christian scriptures.

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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:56 pm

Unfortunately you would have to totally re define Christianity Jim. I for one am a Spiritualist but not a Christian. I believe in God but not the trinity, being saved by Jesus, the immaculate conception, hell, original sin. The list goes on and on I may accept Jesus as a medium, healer and teacher just as other past teachers.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Left Behind on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:14 am

How much of what passes for Christianity is man-made vs. God-made?

Also, does Spiritualism answer every question about the spiritual life? I doubt it. Some Spiritualists say that Christianity is bunk because Spiritualist contacts don't seem to reveal much more God / Jesus involvement than what's apparent to us on the earth plane.

But what does that prove?

Sumerland maybe the next stop on our destination, but I think the ultimate destination is a lot farther.

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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:51 am

For a relative newbie to Spiritualism, who has never been able to attend a Spiritualist Centre because of te egeographic limitations you are very dogmatic about what it and has to be suddenly Jim. Y

You seem to be telling us all What It Is, after 5 top 6 months study, instead of taking real time out studying it. I understand it must be hard when you cannot attend any church but I disagree on many of the things you stress that it is.

At this stage between trivia and misinformation some of the track of the forum, as one truly dedicated to Modern Spiritualism is being lost. We may now have more posts but it is getting harder to see the wood for the trees.

Forget Summerland I am sure a Victorian Idyllic village scene is not what we will find.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:09 pm

Very Happy Well someone is in for a pleasant surprise then.
What on here is all modern Spiritualism cos it' contributed by modern Spiritualists. Fair play Jim Admin it's your forum and you are the respected guv'or but Spiritualism has always been a very broad 'church' with room for all manner of beliefs and then some.
I' with you on Jesus being a top [he top?]medium and healer but wouldn' say I was a Christian Spiritualist BUT I was raised in a Christian ethos environment hymns in school assembly goin to services in other churches for weddings and such so it does rub off a bit and I do think there's a lot of Spiritualism in Christian doctrine and tradition despite what the vicars might say. Same in all religions I expect but if you were raised in a Christian environment then that's going to have an impact. Take guides for example. Those as were steeped in their old religion will still use some of that language and imagery in communications. Mine does for sure very biblical she waxes now and then. That's how she spoke on this side it's part of her. I get an Indian Jain scholar comes through now and then he'll use those analogies, Bhagavad Gita and such. So I reckon there is a lot of religion in Spiritualism or, more accurately; all religions start out Spiritualism then over time it gets buried under dogma and ritual.
These secular Spiritualists, what they believe in is their 'religion' and very faithful to it they are too. Look at that Victor Zammit, he's like Billy Graham the way he evangelises for what he believes in. Bless his little cotton socks.
Spiritualism to me is like one mountain but with many paths up it and all of them leading to the top.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Left Behind on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:17 am

Admin wrote:For a relative newbie to Spiritualism, who has never been able to attend a Spiritualist Centre because of te egeographic limitations you are very dogmatic about what it and has to be suddenly Jim. Y

You seem to be telling us all What It Is, after 5 top 6 months study, instead of taking real time out studying it. I understand it must be hard when you cannot attend any church but I disagree on many of the things you stress that it is.

At this stage between trivia and misinformation some of the track of the forum, as one truly dedicated to Modern Spiritualism is being lost. We may now have more posts but it is getting harder to see the wood for the trees.

Forget Summerland I am sure a Victorian Idyllic village scene is not what we will find.

What do you think we'll find, Jim? Reincarnation into a village in India filled with cow manure, and people covered with it?

Every Spiritualist account has us living in a world similar to this one, but much better. I'm repeating what Spiritualism teaches, and has taught for over 100 years. It hasn't started "suddenly" teaching these things.

So what should I do? Suspend belief, because I haven't been hanging around a Spiritualist church for at least 30 years? Meanwhile, spend those 30 years in a spiritual gumbo pot - a little Theosophy, a bit of Buddhism, a healthy dose of reincarnation, a touch of grated New Age crystals for flavoring?

If this forum is "truly dedicated to Modern Spiritualism", I don't see why anyone is offended because a forum member - whether he's been on here for a day or for 10 years, whether he's been a Spiritualist for 6 months or for 6 decades - repeats precisely what Modern Spiritualism teaches.

As far as Jesus Christ: I haven't yet bumped into him while walking the streets. So that proves he doesn't exist? If I don't bump into him while walking the streets of that Victorian idyllic village, that should be interpreted as what: further proof that he doesn't exist?

Jim

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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:49 am

Jim, I have never said Jesus has never existed albeit I am prepared to present information from others that questions this fact. Neither am a reincarnationist, although I believe nothing is impossible for Spirit, but you must have noted I do not believe we reincarnate in the way you stressed in this comment.


As to a future life, not sure what Spiritualism teaches, the Borgia Books are different to AJ Davis and there are differences to the 5 volumes of Rev Vale Owen's Life Beyond the Veil. All of these express life in a way very representative of a Victorian idyll. Yet that idyllic Victorian life style was an illusion. In addition there are other variants on life beyond the borderland from other sources.


That and the fact that life has moved on here suggests that Spirit will be different to the way it has been depicted by our past writers.

Certainly Spiritualists may read what life is like in Spirit through many books. However, despite the books, beyond stating that we survive to take our place in Spirit the teachings of eeh Spiritualist Movement are light on expressing an opinion of what that life is, because we cannot Prove it.

Notably the trance teachings I really like and tend to look to, not in there entirity, but for the passages that resonate, Silver Birch, Red Cloud and the Stainton Moses teachings are light on in explaining in detail the matter of ife in Spirit.

Thats why I feel that Spiritualism has to avoid dogmatic claims of fact based upon books and stay with statements that are proveable. You must notice that we say the cornerstone of the movement is proof of survival. That is the one Truth which we can prove time after time.

All automatic writing and trance should be treated with discernment not as fact. Likewise psychic readings, Tarot, Crystal readings, physical phenomena (apart from proveable Spirit Contact), moving objects, bending objects and levitating etc cannot Prove Spirit because they can be achieved telekinetically.

Equally people giving details of the guides who are with that person requires discernment because it cannot be proved (e.g. if someone who seems incapable of giving proof of survival tells me I have an Indian Guide I will take it with a pinch of salt, whereas if that person has consistently been giving proof I would tend to accept it).

Certainly the initial experiences I have had with those who have just crossed over but who are communicating with their loved one's via me suggest a very different start to the life in Spirit than some of the books. I am also certain that to attempt to share what life is like via a human medium living a physical life would mean the picture would have to be distorted so that the individual could interpret it by what they know in this world.

I think that is why Spiritualism is, generally light on with descriptive teachings on life in the after worls albeit many have written their versions of this life, apparently by trance communication. I tust and hope that the descriptions do not do justice to the actual experience we will fond ourselves in.

If all thee souls that have passed opted to remain themselves, living in cottages in summerland just imagine the vastness of the place. If they all retain their own identity, personality and lifestyles then it will be of vast diversity. All the races, sects and religions would segregate back to their own kind and resurrect the life on earth with no eternal progress or brotherhood of Spirit.

It is an amazing thought but I am not holding onto a particular descriptor of life in the Spirit World, even from similar but different books, as one truth, an unchangeable gospel.

I think I am still dogmatic but have moved on from a very fixed view of what Modern Spiritualism is and has to be. In that way lies theology and religion.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by normy on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:14 am

What Admin says resonates with me, I have had some of the same thoughts. I think I must be a survivalist, because I don't believe there is a personal God who intervenes in our affairs on earth, which is implied in the first Principle as I see it, the Fatherhood of God, and most people seem to pray to a God or Great Spirit. I don't think He's listening. Spirits do listen.
Principle 2 is a joke as seen by human history so far
Principle 3 yes I've had enough evidence to convince me.
Principle 4 yes
Principle 5 yes for me what it's all about, personal choices and responsibility
Principle 6 not sure what this means, we are said to automatically arrive to join spirits like ourselves, like attracts like etc ,similar vibrations, where does compensation and retribution come in? Those who did evil deeds for example would presumably be well suited and accustomed to be with those like themselves.
Principle 7 eternal progress we hope so! ( If we want to?)

It is interesting that spirit communicators, by whatever means, have never told us anything about the physical which we did not know already, as far as I know. That, together with the contradictions in accounts of what it's like in the afterlife, seems to indicate that there is only so much we are allowed to know, for some reason.
Or they don't know themselves, or can't explain in terms we understand. I find this hard to accept, partly because spirits are said to be just the same when they pass over according to mediums, so why are the accounts so different? The guides talk at length in philosophical generalities, but I have no idea as yet what it will actually be like in the spirit world.



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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Wes on Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:57 am

I suspect the next life begins with something that makes us comfortable and eases the transition. A friend's father communicated that after he died he woke up in a hospital. Another friend's mother communicated that she was getting help from a priest of her faith. Once that transition period is over though, who knows what's next?
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by bravo321uk on Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:58 am

I think every1 goes through again and again what the world of spirit will be like when we get there, as its general curiosity,,, its the whole,, "i know there is an afterlife, What its like"

But whenever I do this, and i start thinking, I instantly start to put houses and buildings and all sorts there, as when i search my mind,,, my mind starts to look for physical answers, even get lovely rivers and trees and all sorts.

But isnt that the problem? We live in the world of physical,,, so can only have physical answers.... and isnt spirit a world of thought?

And if spirit is a world of thought it would make sense to me, why answers vary from spirit to spirit and guide to guide.
and then of course times would change in spirit,, as the thoughts of the people that go there would change.

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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Wes on Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:38 pm

bravo321uk wrote:I think every1 goes through again and again what the world of spirit will be like when we get there, as its general curiosity,,, its the whole,, "i know there is an afterlife, What its like"

But whenever I do this, and i start thinking, I instantly start to put houses and buildings and all sorts there, as when i search my mind,,, my mind starts to look for physical answers, even get lovely rivers and trees and all sorts.

But isnt that the problem? We live in the world of physical,,, so can only have physical answers.... and isnt spirit a world of thought?

And if spirit is a world of thought it would make sense to me, why answers vary from spirit to spirit and guide to guide.
and then of course times would change in spirit,, as the thoughts of the people that go there would change.

It could also be that our interests on earth remain our interests in the next world, for a while at least. So if a spirit has nothing to say about "life up there" it's because they're too busy watching the football down on earth, or looking for Elvis up there, if he is up there...
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by KatyKing on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:21 pm

There are some quite nice villages in India especially up in the hills where it's cooler but I take your point Jim LB.
It's one thing knowing lots about Spiritualism and quite another thing living it.
Best Spiritualist I know has possibly never ever opened a book on the subjcet in her entire life, she cleans at our church and is one of the most powerful mediums and effective healers I have ever met. Humble with it.
History is all well and good, so is belief (in its place0 but when what once was becomes more impostrant than what is now and where one person's belief system is used to squash anothers then I reckon Spiritualism has flown out of the window.
I've said it here before but it bears repeating.
Catholic Priest and a medium get into a heated debate that goes nowhere so they amicably agree to call a halt.
As they shake hands to go their separate ways the medium smiles and says.
'Well Father we'll just have to agree to differ, so you just carry on serving God in your way and I'll just carry on serving Him in His'.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by normy on Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:43 pm

It always comes back to service to others Smile
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:23 am

Sometimes KK I feel from your posts you would rather like to burn the books and ignore learning. The comment seemed in some way to target me, albeit obscurely, maybe because of my rather bad tempered earlier post to Jim LB which I apologise for. In honesty I tend to think we have very different views of Spiritualism and maybe even the purpose of this forum which is fine by me. Different views are fine on the forum, albeit when a serious topic breaks out my interest is in keeping it that way.

I am aware that many people, the lurking guests, actually use this forum as a resource and I am pleased we have so much in the way of serious material available for them. Getting an appropriate balance between this and the other requirements of a forum can become difficult.

I read a very good piece recently which said that if we did not use history to guide the present then the Spirit walks in darkness.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:53 am

For those who have not listened to Michael Rolls views this is the first part of the video, if you go to you tube you will find the other sections.
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Re: Survivalist?

Post by normy on Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:51 am

Thanks Admin. I am one of those who believe that, if your way of life is not of the best, knowledge and study of the history of spiritualism in it's widest sense can inspire and support a better more progressive way of life. What is needed is both. Knowledge can never be bad, but ignorance can never be good, in my opinion.

Years ago I supported Michael Roll's campaign, and studied Ron Pearson's theories in his books. I'm afraid my mathematics is not good enough to properly critique Rons theories, although I am an ex-scientist, but his general ideas of an intelligent ether,with a scientific explanation,seems quite reasonable, and apparently has not yet been refuted by demonstrating any flaws.
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