Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

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Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by eirefox on Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:15 pm

If Spiritualists believe we are only born once on this earth, and then go to Summer Land, my question is this: Why are we born onto the earth? Why are we not created as a spirit, and dwell in Summer Land? Why do we have to go through this earthly life to achiecve the spirit life? Wouldn't it be just as easy to born spirit in Summer Land? I'm curious what others think about the WHY of going through the trials of earth.
If be progress in the spirit world, then why do we need to suffer in this lifetime? Why not begin our existence in the spirit world, and progress immediately there?

eirefox


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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by petal34 on Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:08 pm

Now isn't that strange?
Was thinking of the same or similiar subject this morning.
Subject of reincarnation again raises it's head.
But how do we know we do not start from the spirit world?
Would the spirit world be the starting point of all progress?
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by skfarblum on Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:48 pm

Dear Eirefox,
There is a huge plethora of answers that are available in the
market place of ideas.There maybe truths buried amongst them.
I personally feel the answer lies in being able to answer the question
"Before this form was born-what was I?"
Good post.
Stephen
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by skfarblum on Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:30 pm

This idea of us having our memories wiped,I think
came up in the posts not to long ago.For all I know Joanna Southcott
maybe right.Still a baby is not a "tabula rasa".We are all born with
a particular personality.A personality is not just a product of the genome.
For me something has been added.The question is what or who?
And what about consciousness?.Babies are aware even before birth.
They like to kick and they react to mothers who smoke.
I think prior to consciousness there is an addition to the developing
embryo.This source of this addition is for me the mystery.
Here in this addition lies the reason for our being.
Stephen
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by earth angel on Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:51 pm

We believe that we are all spirits that are born into a human body to learn and grow as souls, and experience life here on earth to enable our souls growth
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Left Behind on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:06 pm

I don't know the answer.

I do know, though, for sure, that God doesn't want to make things easy for us.

Maybe that's the answer?


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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Left Behind on Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:07 pm

KatyKing wrote:Cos this is where all the action is at.
Sort of 'winning our spurs' or not winning them as the case might be.
Chance to improve once we pass but the more good done this side the better the mansion in summer land.
[Reckon mine'll be a shed].

I'll be sharing my shed with the hogs, I'm afraid, Peter. Neutral

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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Wes on Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:10 pm

The answer lies in the question - there are experiences that can only be had by living a physical existence, and in a life of eternal progress and learning, this dense, heavy life is part of that journey.
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Admin on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:00 am

earth angel wrote:We believe that we are all spirits that are born into a human body to learn and grow as souls, and experience life here on earth to enable our souls growth

by Wes on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 6:40

The answer lies in the question - there are experiences that can only be had by living a physical existence, and in a life of eternal progress and learning, this dense, heavy life is part of that journey.

Exellent answers combine them and I agree that is the reason we are Spirits before during and after our physical life just differeing energy combinations.
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Left Behind on Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:41 pm

Wes wrote:The answer lies in the question - there are experiences that can only be had by living a physical existence, and in a life of eternal progress and learning, this dense, heavy life is part of that journey.

I think you have it there, Wes! Smile

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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Left Behind on Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:04 pm

KatyKing wrote:Nope he was out on a push bike riding with his son and just had a massive heart attack. His wife's never woprked since getting arried and now three kids at home, not little ones but still kids none of them working.
Bad business, but it's never good is it?

It's amazing how fast our lives can change, and for the worse.

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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by _Leslie_ on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:55 am

I thought we were born in spirit - so to speak... as in Mother nature only affords us the material body for a material World, which we then animate. Upon leaving the material World, mother nature simply reclaims 'her' contribution, and we return 'home'. Home being a place (for me) where I have probably resided far longer than I have in this one...
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by _Leslie_ on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:05 am

eirefox wrote:<SNIP>
If be progress in the spirit world, then why do we need to suffer in this lifetime? Why not begin our existence in the spirit world, and progress immediately there?

I believe our progress in the spirit world is linked to our progress here, sorry for using the old analogy - but perhaps a little like going to school. And just as we would not attend and sit in our children’s class here on the earth plane, but would rather encourage them to attend regardless and try their best – Nor can spirit sit in our class for us, they encourage and help us to do our best , just I believe as we do for our children.
Why? Because I truly believe that ultimately they are our lessons… And just like some of our children with leave school with no qualifications, so will some of us, when we graduate from this world.
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by eirefox on Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:20 pm

Hi Leslie,
That's how I look at it also. I believe that we are all created as spirit. We are created undevelopped (morally, emotionally, ect) and that we progress upwards from our initial 'birth' as spirit.
Life in the flesh is a classroom, where we learn the difference between right and wrong. We develop morally.
I also think that just as there are different classes, and different grade levels in this earthly school that we have to attend various 'classes' in the flesh so-to-speak (reincarnation).
We'll all graduate eventually!

eirefox


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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Admin on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:21 pm

Still don't go for the reincarnation bit, it never properly explains the population growth and who on earth are we as mediums connecting to if we all reincarnate, sometimes apparently instantly.

I also dislike the fact it is a direct offshoot of Hindu traditions which excluded the untouchables and was a great way for the Brahmins to retain control.

My version is much more in keeping with Imperators words to Stainton Moses. If one class fails to teach the lesson why would we use that method again. I believe reincarnation may happen but we still have that thing we include in our Principles Freedom of Choice. Even Silver Birch touched upon that, we may choose another route after all the Spirit known as Silver Birch was not a "Perfected" one but was not constantly reincarnating to become perfect.

This concept of "perfection" is a concern how would we ever become perfect through using a very imperfect physical world. It is also more Theosophist/Buddhist/Spiritist than Spiritualist. Must we be "perfect" and who defines this. If it is God then how can a mere Spirit in a Physical Life ever hope to understand the mind of God to define Perfection.


Last edited by Admin on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:07 am; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Wes on Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:57 pm

Indeed Jim, if you want to understand what eating fruit is all about, you won't get very far by eating apples and only apples. You need to to sample as many different fruits as you can and not restrict yourself to just one.

That was my attempt to avoid the classroom analogy Very Happy
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by eirefox on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:21 am

Hi Admin,
Well, reincarnationists do have answers to those concerns, although that would take a whole 'nother thread and tons of time to discuss/debate... which I honestly wouldn't want to get into. I certainly do understand your objections, and respect those objections. To tell you the truth, I think that the simple Spiritualist answer to all of this sounds more comforting to me. I'd love to think that once I die I'll be in Summer Land forever (if I choose), and wouldn't have to come back to all of this pain and suffering (not that all of life is pain and suffering, but there is enough here that I certainly wouldn't come back if I didn't have to!) But I've probably been 'brainwashed' for too long to think differently than what I do.
But, I admit that your view is certainly the more comforting of the two.

Admin wrote:Still don't go for the reincarnation bit, it never properly explains the population growth and who on earth are we as mediums connecting to if we all reincarnate, sometimes apparently instantly.

I also dislike the fact it is a direct offshoot of Hindu traditions which excluded the untouchables and was a great way for the Brahmins to retain control.

My version is much more in keeping with Imperators words to Stainton Moses. If one class fails to teach the lesson why would we use that method again. I believe reincarnation may happen but we still have that thing we include in our Principles Freedom of Choice. Even Silver Birch touched upon that, we may choose another route after all the Spirit known as Silver Birch was not a "Perfected" one but was not constantly reincarnating to become perfect.

This concept of "perfection" is a concern how would we ever become perfect through using a very imperfect physical world. It is also more Theosophist/Buddhist/Spiritist than Spiritualist. Must we be "perfect" and who defines this. If it is God then how can a mere Spirit in a Physical Life ever hope to understand the mind of God to define Perfection.

eirefox


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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:23 am

I wonder part of my view is that we could take on a much worse life as some other type of being in another universe. I do hope I manage to make it onwards and upwards.

Jim
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Wes on Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:09 am

Admin wrote:I wonder part of my view is that we could take on a much worse life as some other type of being in another universe. I do hope I manage to make it onwards and upwards.

Jim

It depends what you mean by "worse".

If all the "bad" things on earth are opportunites for learning and growth, then a worse place would be somewhere where nothing "bad" ever happens..

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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:20 am

Hmm but what would happen if only bad things happen, its teh glass half full or the glass half empty argument.

However onto the philosophical bit, as long as you ignore my miander into terrible metaphors. If I am reconstituted in a new world (hopefully not like instant dehydrated potato), where the rules of engagement to life are totally different, how would good, bad and perfected be interpreted.

How would I reincarnate and in what form. I have heard arguments, explaining the fact that many of our exalted pioneers conducted conversations with the denizens of Mars, Venus and Saturn, that the reality was they conversed with spiritual elements the like of which we could not understand. Or is that all just a lot of hot air. Should we dismiss Andrew Jackson Davis's disscusions with those inter galactic beings as just so much hot air. Or is that just a gaseous thing, like the Venusians who apparently are so unlike Star Treks Dr Spock.

Hmm I think a little discernment in trance communications is valid or else there is a possibility of losing credibility down the same wormhole as the Scole Group.

In a very roundabout way, avoiding the traffic jams on the far side of the galaxy, until they build th by pass suggested in hitch hikers guide to the galaxy they will never improve, (albeit this may explain the 2012 prophecies) I believe we all need to understand our knowledge of the life we live beyond this one is extremely limeited and the varying reports can not all be right.

I prefer the one I look at, especially compared to Monsieur Kardecs where all the mentally and physically disabled are receiving punishment, in their reincarnation, as part of their learning, for misdeeds in a past life.
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Admin on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:04 am

I posted that one deliberately because I believe it is important not just to read the past writings but to look at the historical context to help adjust our view of what was written.

Additionally, whilst Spiritualism is at risk of getting locked up in aspic, because taking new ideas on board requires care. It remains much more free flowing than either Spiritism or one of the other religions thought to be a basis of Spiritualism, Swedenborgianism aka the New Church which was only founded as a study group to study his incomprehensible tomes.

Both of these are, like the major religions, locked in a place and a time re interpreting the theology of the founders. Theosophy was locked in the errant imagination of Madame Blavatsky, struggling to escape. You can read the writings of these people but studying the history adds context. With context comes wisdom to understand and reinterpret preventing us being locked in by a theology which is flawed.

Jim
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:12 pm

_Leslie_ wrote:I thought we were born in spirit - so to speak... as in Mother nature only affords us the material body for a material World, which we then animate. Upon leaving the material World, mother nature simply reclaims 'her' contribution, and we return 'home'. Home being a place (for me) where I have probably resided far longer than I have in this one...

I don't know whether I've been in spirit before, or for how long, or when I'll go or return there: but given a choice, I'm NOT coming back here.

Remember the old country song "This Old House"? When I leave this old house, I won't be shopping for a new one anywhere in this dimension.

Left Behind


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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by Left Behind on Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:20 pm

Admin wrote:Still don't go for the reincarnation bit, it never properly explains the population growth and who on earth are we as mediums connecting to if we all reincarnate, sometimes apparently instantly.

I also dislike the fact it is a direct offshoot of Hindu traditions which excluded the untouchables and was a great way for the Brahmins to retain control.

My version is much more in keeping with Imperators words to Stainton Moses. If one class fails to teach the lesson why would we use that method again. I believe reincarnation may happen but we still have that thing we include in our Principles Freedom of Choice. Even Silver Birch touched upon that, we may choose another route after all the Spirit known as Silver Birch was not a "Perfected" one but was not constantly reincarnating to become perfect.

This concept of "perfection" is a concern how would we ever become perfect through using a very imperfect physical world. It is also more Theosophist/Buddhist/Spiritist than Spiritualist. Must we be "perfect" and who defines this. If it is God then how can a mere Spirit in a Physical Life ever hope to understand the mind of God to define Perfection.

Yes. I see many flaws in the theory of reincarnation, but the major one is the lack of necessity for it, given the Spiritualists' concept of eternal progress. If we move on to a better world, and can progress from there if we choose, why is it necessary to retrogress back to earth?

Reincarnation makes sense if you're a Buddhist. It doesn't make sense of you're a Spiritualist.

I think it's all traceable to the Theosophy gang. They picked up some ideas from Eastern religions. Spiritualists picked up some ideas from them, but never thought these ideas through: they just tacked them on to an existing system, where they didn't fit.

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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by skfarblum on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:52 pm

The one-electron universe hypothesis, commonly associated with Richard Feynman when he mentioned it in his Nobel lecture,postulates that there exists only a single electron in the universe, propagating through space and time in such a way as to appear in many places simultaneously.
I like this theory.Except I would change one-electron to the one-soul universe.
Just one soul doing everything.
So who are we?Just icon-figures on a universal holographic computer screen.The one-soul is the computer.The afterlife is part of holographic universe.Just different frequency.
Memories of reincarnations.Just recycled code by the one-soul. Very Happy
Stephen
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Re: Why Are We Born in the Flesh, and Not Directly as Spirit?

Post by petal34 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:34 pm

skfarblum wrote:The one-electron universe hypothesis, commonly associated with Richard Feynman when he mentioned it in his Nobel lecture,postulates that there exists only a single electron in the universe, propagating through space and time in such a way as to appear in many places simultaneously.
I like this theory.Except I would change one-electron to the one-soul universe.
Just one soul doing everything.
So who are we?Just icon-figures on a universal holographic computer screen.The one-soul is the computer.The afterlife is part of holographic universe.Just different frequency.
Memories of reincarnations.Just recycled code by the one-soul. Very Happy
Stephen

A good way of seeing events,Stephen.
One soul universe.
I can imagine what you mean.
Taking the computer into consideration,who controls that computer?
Not us but the various configurations which tell us what to do and how we do it.
Good thinking!
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