Organ Donation

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Organ Donation

Post by obiwan on Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:32 pm

I'd be interested to hear posters' views on the pros and cons from a Spiritualist perspective if anyone would are to comment? There is a bit of a drive on the UK at the moment to recruit more.

obiwan


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:18 pm

obiwan wrote:I'd be interested to hear posters' views on the pros and cons from a Spiritualist perspective if anyone would are to comment? There is a bit of a drive on the UK at the moment to recruit more.

As a dyed-in-the-wool Modern Spiritualist I'm all for donation - I'm signed up on both sides of the big pond in readiness for when I kick my clogs.

I've found nothing in Spiritualist teachings and philosophy that gives me any concerns (not even SB's words) and the difference it can make to sick individuals can be enormous.

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Quiet on Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:40 pm

I was listening via YouTube to tapes of Silver Birch speaking and he speaks against organ donation but only from the point of view that death is not to be feared. It is the door to something quite wonderful.

He also said that law will prevail - that if it is our time to die, the transplants will not work. That is inexorable.

He does not speak against organ donation from a moral perspective at all. It's more that the Spirit world offers such riches, why be afraid of physical death?

Quiet


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by KatyKing on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:43 pm

I'm all for it but I doubt if anyone would want any of my high mileage - one less than careful owner - 'spare parts'.
They had a drive on here in college for the students to carry donor cards, the take up was most encouraging.
Young people are good hearted and altruistic by nature.
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:58 pm

"He also said that law will prevail - that if it is our time to die, the transplants will not work. That is inexorable." And by inference one would assume that when it's still not time to pass over, the transplant could work.....

"He does not speak against organ donation from a moral perspective at all. It's more that the Spirit world offers such riches, why be afraid of physical death?" Conversely one might say that death may not be a fear but hard-wiring, and our personal desire to stay alive in this world, dictate how we behave. And we may also not wish to suffer years of ill health when a donation could improve things immeasurably, allowing us to live our earth life more fully before the inevitable occurs.

Extrapolating SB's argument, why should we wish to stay here long at all?


mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Quiet on Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 pm

I had the sense that Silver Birch was counselling us more about not being afraid of death than about the realities of life.

I think that is all right when one has knowledge about the life in spirit but is not meaningful when one doesn't, or it one doesn't have full faith that 'all will be well'.

For parents to leave young children, or for a family to lose a child or young person, it's not much consolation.

Personally, I am in favour of organ transplants and would be a donor except that I have a health condition which does not allow that.

Quiet


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by obiwan on Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:54 pm

Very interesting - thanks you(s)
SB observed, I think, that the key is 'motive'. I am inclined to apply that comment to most things.

obiwan


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Admin on Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:48 pm

Actually if you look at the words and the date they were said Organ Donation was only theoretical. I personally believe SB was saying it would not work and he also spoke against blood transfusions. These and one or two things bother me a little about his teachings, they are somewhat at odds with the overall thrust of the words. However, even with the greatest of works I feel discrimination is needed. However, I am not sure we should reinterpret the words now to make the success of organ transplants fit with what was actually said.

We have to remember that the Trance state is not necessarily even through a session and at times the mediums subconcious can impinge upon the message. It would be interesting to know Maurice Barbanells own views about such matters.

Me I am all in favour of organ transplants but mine will be so depreciated as to add little value to others lives lol. I also am, obviously, in favour of blood transfusions.
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:08 am

Much as I admire and love the teachings of SB, there are issues in this modern world that he couldn't have addressed because at the time he was around those issues either didn't exist or were at an early stage.

Organ donation would be one and successful donation is a comparatively modern matter. Whether Maurice Barbanell had view on this subject, and whether they ever came 'to the surface' during the trance communication, I guess we'll never know....


mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Admin on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:50 am

Hi Mac, I agree with you in general I love the Silver Birch material but life has changed so much and there is a lot which could not have been addressed back then.
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:04 am

Admin wrote:Hi Mac, I agree with you in general I love the Silver Birch material but life has changed so much and there is a lot which could not have been addressed back then.

hello, Jim

We do not even have a modern-day guide, let alone one of the stature of Silver Birch, to give guidance on the many difficulties the world faces. And boy do we have some tricky issues comin'!

Humankind just has to get on with things as best it can and live with its many, inevitable mistakes.

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Admin on Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:15 am

Wouldn't it be good to get one like that again. However, how many home circles would remain with that level of dedication to support the work of one trance medium without wanting to develop themselves.

For a start Barbanell was an intelligent man so the guides had, as they often say, more to work with. I say intelligent but he was also educated as were the circle around him.

Mark you the world was avery different place then and to many not a better one. However, mindless entertainment was not there to fill the gaps. Being entertained and instant everything does not stimulate the senses properly.
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:55 am

Admin wrote:Wouldn't it be good to get one like that again. However, how many home circles would remain with that level of dedication to support the work of one trance medium without wanting to develop themselves.

For a start Barbanell was an intelligent man so the guides had, as they often say, more to work with. I say intelligent but he was also educated as were the circle around him.

Mark you the world was avery different place then and to many not a better one. However, mindless entertainment was not there to fill the gaps. Being entertained and instant everything does not stimulate the senses properly.

Yes it would be a wonderful thing to find a new teacher although I fancy that such times are now past... You have made some very important points why that might be and I agree with what you've said. It's natural for humankind to wish that 'the old ways' could return but that's not how life usually pans out.

As the saying goes: "That was then and this is now."

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Admin on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:27 am

Interestingly Mac we are seeing more younger people now and some with talent too..Mark you in part young may be comparative to my advancing years.
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:49 am

Admin wrote:Interestingly Mac we are seeing more younger people now and some with talent too..Mark you in part young may be comparative to my advancing years.

It's heartening to learn that Jim - I've also heard it from others so I'm hoping things are 'on the up' for Spiritualism and for evidential mediumship.

I, too, am finding your situation with regard to young uns! Laughing And I'm older than you by a few years too...

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Wes on Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:44 am

From memory, Silver Birch said he was fine with skin grafts, as long as it was your own skin being grafted, but blood transfusions and organ transplants were a spiritual no-no.


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by obiwan on Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:02 pm

What I got from SB is that we are bound to do things that are not in our best spiritual interest. The motivation is a key element. For example, SB recommends vegetarianism as advisable, but most people aren't.

This is only my own, perhaps ignorant view; we make personal decisions and then face the consequences eventually. We do it everyday. It may seem like transplantation and blood transfusions are the right thing to do but there may be unforeseen consequences from our point of view, if not now, then perhaps in the hereafter (if there is one). My take on SB is to hear what he is purported to say but make one's own mind up if we don't agree or see the reasoning. I don't think SB wanted folks to blindly follow his teachings if we can't accept them or they don't resonate with us. It is one of the reasons I like reading him. It's the same with his teachings on reincarnation, and almost everything else he talks about.

There were certainly blood transfusions in barbanel's day. I don't think there was much, if any, transplantation.

obiwan


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:24 pm

When it comes to organ donation, the motive is surely faultless - the desire to help another. If there may be unforeseen spiritual consequences for us then, by definition, we can't see them and as my duck friend points out, we make decisions every day whose outcome is unforeseen - it's the way of life.

As SB didn't spell out exactly why it's the 'wrong' thing to do either to donate or receive an organ, then we must trust our judgement in just the same way as we do in other situations - I'm comfortable with that.


mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Wes on Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:59 pm

The first successful kidney transplant was in 1954, and heart and liver transplants in 1967, so there would have been an awareness of these procedures during Silver Birch's "residency"

If disease is a result of not conforming to Natural Law in some way, then an organ transplant may "cure" the physical symptoms of spiritual disharmony, but not address the cause, which would result in a lost opportunity to learn and grow. Which I suspect is what Silver Birch may have taken into consideration when talking about organ transplants.

It would be like a chain smoker with lung cancer continuing to smoke after getting a new set of lungs, yes their life has been extended and suffering eased, but have they actually improved their physical or spiritual health in any way?


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:27 pm

Wes wrote:The first successful kidney transplant was in 1954, and heart and liver transplants in 1967, so there would have been an awareness of these procedures during Silver Birch's "residency"

If disease is a result of not conforming to Natural Law in some way, then an organ transplant may "cure" the physical symptoms of spiritual disharmony, but not address the cause, which would result in a lost opportunity to learn and grow. Which I suspect is what Silver Birch may have taken into consideration when talking about organ transplants.

It would be like a chain smoker with lung cancer continuing to smoke after getting a new set of lungs, yes their life has been extended and suffering eased, but have they actually improved their physical or spiritual health in any way?



Yes the smoking and replacement lungs situation is well illustrated by George Best...... Similarly booze and its effect on one's liver.

But for a kidney failure, for example, as a result of illness or whatever it can be a wholly non-contributory reason. And what of donated corneas where a failure is identifiably non-contributory?

The more we look at the detail of each case the more, I'd suggest, that generalisation is highly inappropriate.

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Admin on Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:48 pm

What a good and useful discussion this one is thanks all.

Jim
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Quiet on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:07 pm

Many people take up smoking and drink alcohol because of the intense marketing pressures and the cultural acceptance of these habits. Health promotion messages don't reach everyone effectively. Sometimes people use legal and illegal drugs as a way of coping with sadness/trauma.

It's a fine call to make judgements about self-contribution to illnesses caused by legal or illegal social drugs.

Usually there is a mix of personal and social responsibility involved in these things but I guess those with much greater wisdom than us will make the final determinations.


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:53 am

Quiet wrote:Many people take up smoking and drink alcohol because of the intense marketing pressures and the cultural acceptance of these habits. Health promotion messages don't reach everyone effectively. Sometimes people use legal and illegal drugs as a way of coping with sadness/trauma.

It's a fine call to make judgements about self-contribution to illnesses caused by legal or illegal social drugs.

Usually there is a mix of personal and social responsibility involved in these things but I guess those with much greater wisdom than us will make the final determinations.


I don't make judgments on these issues....

My examples were simply to illustrate the potential pitfalls of generalisation.

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

Post by Wes on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:21 am

Silver Birch says that every disease, illness, or even accident, has a contributory element, and that the reason we can't always see the connection between cause and effect is due to our lack of knowledge of Natural Law. The smoker with lung cancer was an example of a cause and effect we can see and perhaps even explain by medical means.

Other instances may be less clear due to Natural Law operating beyond our powers of observation. Silver Birch would have us accept that babies born with terminal disease are not cases of bad luck or cruel twists of fate, but are cases of Natural Law in perfect operation. I'm not able to even begin to accept how this would be the case, but I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand either.
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Re: Organ Donation

Post by mac on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:38 am

You could go on quoting almost forever..... And as an experiencer of the situation you outline in your second paragraph it has special resonance for me.

But I have nothing to add to my earlier piece. I'm comfortable with the amount I presently understand - that'll do fine for me this time around unless something/someone enlightens me further.

mac


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Re: Organ Donation

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