Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:44 am

Admin wrote:Absolutely Wes I agree with that but even then I think the intent should be to start as you mean to go on with at least some dim red light.
agree to that Smile
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:30 pm

I don't see the problem with Dark Seances and Independent Direct Voice. Am I missing something?

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:44 pm

obiwan wrote:I don't see the problem with Dark Seances and Independent Direct Voice. Am I missing something?
Me neader - its okay Smile
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Admin on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:34 pm

Hi Obi, I think the problem is if you say its OK for Direct Voice then its almost impossible to say you can't do other physical phenomena in the dark. The argument for direct voice is the same as that for materialisation.

By the way direct voice through the trumpet has been recorded as occurring in dim red light.

If you look at the link I posted the list of signatories rejecting Dark Seances is quite a who's who of Spiritualists. It was a rejection of the level of fraud which was occurring and had occurred in Dark Seances.

By the way Eglington was a very major figure regarded as an equal to DD Home at the time. There is a strong feeling the SPR went out to get him. Marc has sveral posts about him on his blog, Eglington also features in the latest Psypioneer. I know a lot more but as Lis and marc were involved in a piece of joint research I will leave it to them to post on it elsewhere and draw attention yo it
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:06 pm

Hi Jim
I understand the point you are making. Having said that, if the communicator is known to me and not the medium, total darkness or broad daylight seems to me to be irrelevant. If they are not known to me personally then it is unlikely that they are going to be able to establish their identity. I don't really follow your logic regarding the need for any form of light if the communication method is Independent Direct Voice and the message is intrinsically evidential. Also, I don't see why one cannot insist on different conditions for different types of mediumship. In fact, it seems to me to be essential.

As for any other form of physical mediumship eg moving trumpets, apports, touching people etc: I can just about see the point of it in dim light as a curiosity and fail to see any evidential value in it in darkness.


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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Admin on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:21 pm

The problem is it is rare to have the level of perfect evidence that you suggest Obi and people are all to easily taken in by clever frauds.

If you listened even to Leslie Flints voice its not perfect and if I have done a William Roy gathering information about you (very easy these days you fill in a form saying who you are and what proof you will submit at the door).

Then the voice may not be quite right but in the dark it is producing apparently accurate information.
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:34 pm

Where have onesty goon Crying or Very sad
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:19 am

Admin wrote:The problem is it is rare to have the level of perfect evidence that you suggest Obi and people are all to easily taken in by clever frauds.

If you listened even to Leslie Flints voice its not perfect and if I have done a William Roy gathering information about you (very easy these days you fill in a form saying who you are and what proof you will submit at the door).

Then the voice may not be quite right but in the dark it is producing apparently accurate information.

I agree Jim with regard to rarity.

I don't think the quality of the voice is anywhere near as important as the content with independent direct voice Jim. I am speaking about people known to sitters, not famous drop-ins who no one in the seance knew personally.

If people go to mediums after giving them biographical information, more fool them to be honest. I wouldn't be interested in visiting a medium who needed to know anything about me other than my first name. As for mediums such as Leslie Flint, I am confident I would recognise a friend within a few words even with a very poor quality voice. I am sure we have all done similar things on the phone.

Even if the words were being conveyed (phone or medium) by a third party who didn't sound like them, I would only need to ask a couple of questions to determine whether the originating communicator was who they claimed to be, where I knew the person concerned. If the communication process isn't clear enough to establish this, it's a waste of time IMHO and doesn't matter whether it is in total darkness or full light as far as I can see.

As for trumpets flying round the room or mysterious ectoplasmic emanations - I agree some form of lighting is essential.



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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:23 am

Jane Lyzell wrote:Where have onesty goon Crying or Very sad

Hi Jane, I don't think it is a question of honesty as much as misplaced trust. I suspect most people who claim to be mediums genuinely believe they have an ability. I suspect the majority are deluding themselves that it amounts to much, if anything.

With physical phenomena, I think trust is fine where all the parties know each other. When one introduces a third party such as an investigator, it cannot be left to trust surely? This doesn't imply the medium or the circle are dishonest. If anything proper controls reinforce the honesty of the circle.

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:01 am

Hi Jane,

Its not a modern thing these frauds go right back to the 1850's. A private circle needs trust and honesty but when a decent income can be made these things have always become stretched. Indeed there has even been ego driven frauds in private circles.

Jim
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:25 pm

obiwan wrote:
Jane Lyzell wrote:Where have onesty goon Crying or Very sad

Hi Jane, I don't think it is a question of honesty as much as misplaced trust. I suspect most people who claim to be mediums genuinely believe they have an ability. I suspect the majority are deluding themselves that it amounts to much, if anything.

With physical phenomena, I think trust is fine where all the parties know each other. When one introduces a third party such as an investigator, it cannot be left to trust surely? This doesn't imply the medium or the circle are dishonest. If anything proper controls reinforce the honesty of the circle.
froude is noth honesty Mad
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:26 pm

Admin wrote:Hi Jane,

Its not a modern thing these frauds go right back to the 1850's. A private circle needs trust and honesty but when a decent income can be made these things have always become stretched. Indeed there has even been ego driven frauds in private circles.

Jim
I knowe Jim - sadly- and they keep coming..... Twisted Evil
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:45 pm

Jane Lyzell wrote:
obiwan wrote:
Jane Lyzell wrote:Where have onesty goon Crying or Very sad

Hi Jane, I don't think it is a question of honesty as much as misplaced trust. I suspect most people who claim to be mediums genuinely believe they have an ability. I suspect the majority are deluding themselves that it amounts to much, if anything.

With physical phenomena, I think trust is fine where all the parties know each other. When one introduces a third party such as an investigator, it cannot be left to trust surely? This doesn't imply the medium or the circle are dishonest. If anything proper controls reinforce the honesty of the circle.
froude is noth honesty Mad

Of course deliberate fraud is not honest. It is the intention to deceive which makes it so.

However, I am referring also to a situation where a medium believes they are genuinely in communication with 'the spirit world' but are not providing evidence or are manipulating objects whilst in some sort of altered mental state, or 'fishing' for information. I wouldn't regard that automatically as deliberate fraud, or necessarily even dishonest, more deluded or ignorant.

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:02 pm

obiwan wrote:
Jane Lyzell wrote:
obiwan wrote:
Jane Lyzell wrote:Where have onesty goon Crying or Very sad

Hi Jane, I don't think it is a question of honesty as much as misplaced trust. I suspect most people who claim to be mediums genuinely believe they have an ability. I suspect the majority are deluding themselves that it amounts to much, if anything.

With physical phenomena, I think trust is fine where all the parties know each other. When one introduces a third party such as an investigator, it cannot be left to trust surely? This doesn't imply the medium or the circle are dishonest. If anything proper controls reinforce the honesty of the circle.
froude is noth honesty Mad

Of course deliberate fraud is not honest. It is the intention to deceive which makes it so.

However, I am referring also to a situation where a medium believes they are genuinely in communication with 'the spirit world' but are not providing evidence or are manipulating objects whilst in some sort of altered mental state, or 'fishing' for information. I wouldn't regard that automatically as deliberate fraud, or necessarily even dishonest, more deluded or ignorant.

Thats froude in my eyes
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:08 pm

Well it's certainly not genuine but fraud usually requires intent. I think for those who are deluded about their own ability, fraud is perhaps too strong a word. We can agree to differ.

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Admin on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:14 pm

It is a very interesting point Obi, its an area I am greatly interested so many "psychics" and "mediums" believe they are in contact when it is their own sub conscious pumping out the material. The work of Fournoy and Flammarion in the late 19th C and early 20th C covers this. It is also one of the critical things considered by the early SPR. Indeed it was the SPR who first dealt with multiple personality, the Doris Fischer case.

Many of the early mediums allowed themselves to be tested for this because several felt that their abilities may be linked to an alternative personality that took control especially in trance state. It was a significant reason why psychology was so intertwined with mediumship because the scientists believed mediumship/trance gave greater insights into the human mind.


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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by obiwan on Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:42 pm

Hi Jim

I guess it depends on the purpose of the particular style of mediumship. If the mediumship is intended to be evidential of survival, the criteria for determining where it is coming from (ie not from the medium's own consciousness or whatever) can be pretty tight . Either the evidence is correct and could not reasonably be known by the medium or it isn't correct and/or is potentially general knowledge.

I guess even if it fits the criteria, it is still possible the information has been gained by some 'paranormal' means other than from the ostensible communicator, however we are then into the realms of Super-Psi which I have to say strikes me as a desperate materialist theory.

For other forms of communication where philosophy is dispensed, one could probably do no better than take Silver Birch's advice; to weigh up what we are being told and reject it if it doesn't make sense, like we would with advice from any stranger Smile

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:18 am

Admin wrote:It is a very interesting point Obi, its an area I am greatly interested so many "psychics" and "mediums" believe they are in contact when it is their own sub conscious pumping out the material. The wok of Fournoy and Flammarion in the late 19th C and early 20th C covers this. It is also one of the critical things considered by the early SPR. Indeed it was the SPR who first dealt with multiple personality, the Doris Fischer case.

Many of the early mediums allowed themselves to be tested for this because several felt that their abilities may be linked to an alternative personality that took control especially in trance state. It was a significant reason why psychology was so intertwined with mediumship because the scientists believed mediumship/trance gave greater insights into the human mind.

Im diskusting physical mediumship - not mentel here
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:20 am

obiwan wrote:Hi Jim

I guess it depends on the purpose of the particular style of mediumship. If the mediumship is intended to be evidential of survival, the criteria for determining where it is coming from (ie not from the medium's own consciousness or whatever) can be pretty tight . Either the evidence is correct and could not reasonably be known by the medium or it isn't correct and/or is potentially general knowledge.

I guess even if it fits the criteria, it is still possible the information has been gained by some 'paranormal' means other than from the ostensible communicator, however we are then into the realms of Super-Psi which I have to say strikes me as a desperate materialist theory.

For other forms of communication where philosophy is dispensed, one could probably do no better than take Silver Birch's advice; to weigh up what we are being told and reject it if it doesn't make sense, like we would with advice from any stranger Smile

Agree to silver Birsh Very Happy
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Admin on Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:16 am

Hi Jane,

Flammarion was drawing conclusions about so called Trance as was Flournoy. Most Physical mediumship (except tables and even at times direct voice through a trumpet) is based upon the apparent trance of a medium. This then follows up on a point Obi raises that if the Medium is actually in an alternate state what follows may be fraud but the medium may be unconscious of it or self deceiving. It was another area earlier researchers were fascinated by.

Jim
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by hiorta on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:28 am

It does seem that we must always be guided from within which sort of guarantees that our several evolutionary strands cannot go beyond our capacities prematurely.

Our 'tomorrow' is of tremendous interest to us, but like the impatient child at Xmas, all will unfold in it's own individual way.
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:28 am

hiorta wrote:It does seem that we must always be guided from within which sort of guarantees that our several evolutionary strands cannot go beyond our capacities prematurely.

Our 'tomorrow' is of tremendous interest to us, but like the impatient child at Xmas, all will unfold in it's own individual way.

Werry throu- and I dont belive in al this so called physical mediums today- it has alvays been a smal count of mediums that have the capasaty for physical mediumship!!!

and i wounder howe on earth they knowe they have the gift fore it - they ho now comes oute as New age physical medium !?
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:34 am

Admin wrote:Hi Jane,

Flammarion was drawing conclusions about so called Trance as was Flournoy. Most Physical mediumship (except tables and even at times direct voice through a trumpet) is based upon the apparent trance of a medium. This then follows up on a point Obi raises that if the Medium is actually in an alternate state what follows may be fraud but the medium may be unconscious of it or self deceiving. It was another area earlier researchers were fascinated by.

Jim

what is " Flammarion "(dont under stand)- aboute the trance state you men diptrance i gees- the guids shuld protekt the medium from uncounses fraud ore self desiving - outeher wise - it isent a guide to have involved whit. is my uppinjun.
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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by LeroyC on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:11 pm

Well, not a lot to say here. The topics been done to death.
I have had to learn the hard way, there are no hard and fast rules because its not us whom ultimately decide, its SPIRIT.
Some physcial mediumship just will not function in the light, but its not your decision. Ultimately you need to be guided by your helpers and guides. What they say in relation to this goes..End of story...You can wish all you want, but you cannot dictate.

LeroyC

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Re: Physical mediumship in dark or light ???

Post by Jane Lyzell on Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:24 am

LeroyC wrote:Well, not a lot to say here. The topics been done to death.
I have had to learn the hard way, there are no hard and fast rules because its not us whom ultimately decide, its SPIRIT.
Some physcial mediumship just will not function in the light, but its not your decision. Ultimately you need to be guided by your helpers and guides. What they say in relation to this goes..End of story...You can wish all you want, but you cannot dictate.

LeroyC
Ho is dictate ???
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