What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Admin on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:16 am

Critically Christianity, as expressed within its various theological threads, finds Modern Spiritualism incompatible with Chistianity (as do all the other mainstream religions some which jump a mile away).

To accept the continued existence of every human soul, regardless of its form of belief, colur, race, tribe, sex etc is incompatible with the strictness of their code.

It was this little matter, plus their inability to act as they preached about love for one another (and the evils of hell) that made me reject them over 4 decades ago. Long before I met Spiritualism I became a self professed humanist agnostic (I am now horrified that to be a humanist it now seems becessary to be an atheist).

Now if the orthodox churches reject the key imperative of Spiritualism's truth, i.e. we all survive, then we will never be accepted by them and to be a Christian Spiritualist must bear no relation to being a Christian. The closest the doctrine of Christianity gets to us iies within the apparent commandments of Jesus (I say apparent because they were written so long after events we have no guarantee of what was actually said) and the 10 Commandments bear no relationship to Spiritualism (Nor their foundation The Torah).

Accepting the teachings just of Jesus, on their own, is almost as big a heresy as Spiritualism in the eyes of Orthodox Religion (albeit with Jesus as a prophet, not the son of God, they may be more acceptable in the Muslim faith because he is mentioned, as a prophet, in their teachings).

However, once you make Jesus a man, an ordinary mortal with mediumship and healing skills; not the saviour and Son of God, you may as well follow rational (as Andrew Jackson Davis defined his path and that of the SNU plus NSAC; http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t656-the-three-strands-of-spiritualism-andrew-jackson-davis ) Spiritualism. In doing so you allow Jesus to exist as one of the many major figures of antiquity ; a teacher, inspired speaker, medium and healer. There is then no need to pick over issues like the inclusion of an Old Testament or the factual errors within the orthodox churches teachings (like time of birth) and the amendments which have been made to enhance different versions of church teaching and its power over people. Indeed Jesus becomeas a much more important person than the distortions of Theology end up making him where the Church supplants his position.
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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by obiwan on Sat Aug 26, 2017 3:38 pm

Admin wrote:
To accept the continued existence of every human soul, regardless of its form of belief, colur, race, tribe, sex etc is incompatible with the strictness of their code.


Now if the orthodox churches reject the key imperative of Spiritualism's truth, i.e. we all survive, then we will never be accepted by them and to be a Christian Spiritualist must bear no relation to being a Christian. The closest the doctrine of Christianity gets to us iies within the apparent commandments of Jesus (I say apparent because they were written so long after events we have no guarantee of what was actually said) and the 10 Commandments bear no relationship to Spiritualism (Nor their foundation The Torah).

Accepting the teachings just of Jesus, on their own, is almost as big a heresy as Spiritualism in the eyes of Orthodox Religion (albeit with Jesus as a prophet, not the son of God, they may be more acceptable in the Muslim faith because he is mentioned, as a prophet, in their teachings).

However, once you make Jesus a man, an ordinary mortal with mediumship and healing skills; not the saviour and Son of God, you may as well follow rational (as Andrew Jackson Davis defined his path and that of the SNU plus NSAC; http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t656-the-three-strands-of-spiritualism-andrew-jackson-davis ) Spiritualism. In doing so you allow Jesus to exist as one of the many major figures of antiquity ; a teacher, inspired speaker, medium and healer. There is then no need to pick over issues like the inclusion of an Old Testament or the factual errors within the orthodox churches teachings (like time of birth) and the amendments which have been made to enhance different versions of church teaching and its power over people. Indeed Jesus becomeas a much more important person than the distortions of Theology end up making him where the Church supplants his position.

Hm I am not sure that's entirely accurate Jim. Most Christian denominations accept that every human continues to exist. The difference of opinion is more about in what state they exist. Some Christian denominations teach eternal damnation and suffering, others a period of purgatory, some teach that hell is self-punishment, others separateness from god,still others teach that is is literal punishment by fire and other means.  I can think of at least one that teaches extinction (Jehovahs Witnesses) but they're not generally considered to be Christians (at least not by most other Christian denominations, needless to say JWs consider that all the others claiming to be Christian are fake! - complicated innit?).

The exact nature of Jesus has been a debate within Christianity for centuries as far as I can see. The term 'saviour' is usually connected with the Christian belief that we all bear original sin and that Jesus somehow sacrificed himself to cleanse us of this - the original sin being that of Adam and Eve I presume. No Adam and Eve, no original sin, no original sin, no need for a redemption, no need for redemption a la the christian model, no need for Jesus to be anything more than a man, as far as I can see.

I don't know how Christian Spiritualists identify themselves. If they believe god that was revealed through Jesus, then I can't see any necessary objection to being called Christian and Spiritualist since, as I understand it Spiritualists believe that we are all vessels of the Great Spirit and we ought to seek to express that spirit as fully as possible, therefore Jesus would be no different - am I wrong?

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:53 am

hiorta wrote:The difference is simply that one side of the debate holds that Life, in all its forms, cannot die.

The other position holds that human life must be 'saved'
 to survive physical death, i.e. be 'born again.'

This boils down to the contradictory position: If there is no death - there can be no Resurrection - without Resurrection there can be no Christianity.

Traditional Christianity agrees with both Christian Spiritualism and conventional Spiritualism on the teaching that the spirit cannot die.

But traditional Christianity teaches that after the death of the physical body, the eternal spirit goes on to either reward or punishment: that the division happens and that point, and does not change.

Whereas both conventional and Christian Spiritualists believe that the spirit makes eternal progress toward perfection: that no one is 'saved' but that no one is ever really lost. That it's an eternal process, not a once-and-for-all event.

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 2:08 am

obiwan wrote:
Admin wrote:
To accept the continued existence of every human soul, regardless of its form of belief, colur, race, tribe, sex etc is incompatible with the strictness of their code.


Now if the orthodox churches reject the key imperative of Spiritualism's truth, i.e. we all survive, then we will never be accepted by them and to be a Christian Spiritualist must bear no relation to being a Christian. The closest the doctrine of Christianity gets to us iies within the apparent commandments of Jesus (I say apparent because they were written so long after events we have no guarantee of what was actually said) and the 10 Commandments bear no relationship to Spiritualism (Nor their foundation The Torah).

Accepting the teachings just of Jesus, on their own, is almost as big a heresy as Spiritualism in the eyes of Orthodox Religion (albeit with Jesus as a prophet, not the son of God, they may be more acceptable in the Muslim faith because he is mentioned, as a prophet, in their teachings).

However, once you make Jesus a man, an ordinary mortal with mediumship and healing skills; not the saviour and Son of God, you may as well follow rational (as Andrew Jackson Davis defined his path and that of the SNU plus NSAC; http://www.spiritualismlink.com/t656-the-three-strands-of-spiritualism-andrew-jackson-davis ) Spiritualism. In doing so you allow Jesus to exist as one of the many major figures of antiquity ; a teacher, inspired speaker, medium and healer. There is then no need to pick over issues like the inclusion of an Old Testament or the factual errors within the orthodox churches teachings (like time of birth) and the amendments which have been made to enhance different versions of church teaching and its power over people. Indeed Jesus becomeas a much more important person than the distortions of Theology end up making him where the Church supplants his position.

Hm I am not sure that's entirely accurate Jim. Most Christian denominations accept that every human continues to exist. The difference of opinion is more about in what state they exist. Some Christian denominations teach eternal damnation and suffering, others a period of purgatory, some teach that hell is self-punishment, others separateness from god,still others teach that is is literal punishment by fire and other means.  I can think of at least one that teaches extinction (Jehovahs Witnesses) but they're not generally considered to be Christians (at least not by most other Christian denominations, needless to say JWs consider that all the others claiming to be Christian are fake! - complicated innit?).

The exact nature of Jesus has been a debate within Christianity for centuries as far as I can see. The term 'saviour' is usually connected with the Christian belief that we all bear original sin and that Jesus somehow sacrificed himself to cleanse us of this - the original sin being that of Adam and Eve I presume. No Adam and Eve, no original sin, no original sin, no need for a redemption, no need for redemption a la the christian model, no need for Jesus to be anything more than a man, as far as I can see.

I don't know how Christian Spiritualists identify themselves. If they believe god that was revealed through Jesus, then I can't see any necessary objection to being called Christian and Spiritualist since, as I understand it Spiritualists believe that we are all vessels of the Great Spirit and we ought to seek to express that spirit as fully as possible, therefore Jesus would be no different - am I wrong?

I'm not sure about the Jehovah's Witnesses: but as Obiwan pointed out, they are regarded as heretical by other Christians -- but I am familiar with Catholicism, with the major Protestant denominations, and to a lesser extent with the Eastern Orthodox Christians. None of them, to my knowledge, teach that the human soul or spirit fails to survive the death of the physical. To be 'saved', as they see it, doesn't mean that the spirit survives physical death, but that the spirit goes to heaven rather than hell.

You're not 'saved' from extinction but from eternal torment.

Christian Spiritualists, like other Spiritualists, do not accept this salvation / damnation dichotomy.

All Christian denominations don't necessarily accept the unique divinity of Jesus, either. Some teach that he was the most spiritually developed human: the way-shower as to what we all can become. And, similar to Spiritualism, what we all one day WILL become. This view is help by Unity School of Christianity, for example.

Admittedly, this is heretical, according to traditional Christian denominations.

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by obiwan on Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:22 am

You'll have to take my word on jehovahs witnesses Wink

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Admin on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:06 am

Interestingly the Church of the Latter Day Saints is or should be equally as heretical . Of course they followed an earlier attempt with divination where the man cheated. They also have a link to the Fox Sisters and Maggies "husband's" elder brother who over saw the Governments agreement for the sects removal from New York State to Utah. Mormons have a very interesting view on the pre life of the spirits who enter our physical bodies. If you research pre life it's almost the only articulated position that has a reasonable basis.
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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by obiwan on Sun Aug 27, 2017 11:12 am

Left Behind wrote:
But traditional Christianity teaches that after the death of the physical body, the eternal spirit goes on to either reward or punishment: that the division happens and that point, and does not change.

Not quite. As I understand it Catholicism has (or had) an intermediate state 'purgatory' from which one can graduate to 'heaven' after sufficient chastisement Smile.


Last edited by obiwan on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by hiorta on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:09 pm

obiwan wrote:
Left Behind wrote:
hiorta wrote:
But traditional Christianity teaches that after the death of the physical body, the eternal spirit goes on to either reward or punishment: that the division happens and that point, and does not change.

Not quite. As I understand it Catholicism has (or had) an intermediate state 'purgatory' from which one can graduate to 'heaven' after sufficient chastisement Smile.
Not my quote.
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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by obiwan on Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:20 pm

hiorta wrote:
obiwan wrote:
Left Behind wrote:
But traditional Christianity teaches that after the death of the physical body, the eternal spirit goes on to either reward or punishment: that the division happens and that point, and does not change.

Not quite. As I understand it Catholicism has (or had) an intermediate state 'purgatory' from which one can graduate to 'heaven' after sufficient chastisement Smile.
Not my quote.
Oops! Sorry - fixed.

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:47 pm

obiwan wrote:You'll have to take my word on jehovahs witnesses Wink

I do. Smile

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:50 pm

Admin wrote:Interestingly the Church of the Latter Day Saints is or should be equally as heretical . Of course they followed an earlier attempt with divination where the man cheated. They also have a link to the Fox Sisters and Maggies "husband's" elder brother who over saw the Governments agreement for the sects removal from New York State to Utah. Mormons have a very interesting view on the pre life of the spirits who enter our physical bodies. If you research pre life it's almost the only articulated position that has a reasonable basis.

Interesting, Jim: I will look into that.

I'm of the mindset that Truth is a big jigsaw puzzle and that many individuals and groups possess a piece of it. I don't think that any of us is completely right or totally wrong.

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:58 pm

obiwan wrote:
Left Behind wrote:
But traditional Christianity teaches that after the death of the physical body, the eternal spirit goes on to either reward or punishment: that the division happens and that point, and does not change.

Not quite. As I understand it Catholicism has (or had) an intermediate state 'purgatory' from which one can graduate to 'heaven' after sufficient chastisement Smile.

Yes: I was raised as a Catholic, and that is what they teach. But remember that Purgatory is viewed as a stop en route to Heaven. In the Catholic view, everyone in Purgatory IS 'saved' already. They just have to go through a bit of a moral clean-up before they are allowed to enter Heaven. Whereas, those whose destination is Hell, go straight there without any intermediate stop.

I don't think that the idea of Purgatory is really all that preposterous, if you analogize it to the less-pleasant realms of the spirit world that Benson and Ziewe and other teachers and guides tell us about. (Does Silver Birch? I haven't read a lot of his stuff, sad to say). Indeed, I think the idea of Purgatory originally came as a revelation from the spirit world: it just got misinterpreted and 'institutionalized' by the Catholic Church ("do this that and they other thing we tell you to do and you can shorten your loved ones' time there" sort of thing).

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by mac on Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:58 pm

Unexpectedly, somewhat bizarrely, this thread has burst into life and there's been more recent forum activity than for some time.  

While this conversation is going on, and in the context of the thread's title, perhaps we could profitably discuss for counterpoise "Exactly what is a traditional (Modern) Spiritualist?" Wink

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:04 pm

Great idea, Mac! I just started a Thread on that topic.

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by lastpost on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:38 pm

Hi friends. I happened to arrive at this thread today from a Google link and find that some interesting recent activity has occurred.

I suppose that once someone has come to be firmly established in a particular way of looking at Truth, then it is right for them and it is right for God (or their conception of God or a Supreme Being or however they wish to frame a Greater Power - or not) – and if that be so then who is anyone to say nay! It is between them and their Self.

It is doubtful that any of us give credence to the traditional form of Christianity, and to attempt to explain the tremendous difference between what Christ actually taught and represented and what traditionalist Christians have consistently taught would perhaps be too comprehensive to be made available in a discussion - even if it were possible.

Personally I give my allegiance to the "Zodiac Messages" in respect of combining Christ with Spiritualism (here Spiritualism is being defined as communicating intelligently with spirits) as this form of spirit teaching is something which I find audibly clear in my being. I have recorded, as audio files, some of these (less than one tenth) for their preservation - and comfortable listening of course…

Mp3 files of 128 Zodiac Messages
https://archive.org/details/The-Zodiac-Messages

But in respect to this discussion, and in particular to who this Jesus of Galilee is, I have already referenced the following extract from Spirit messages given through Rev. G. Vale Owen from the 1920s to be insightful - by which I mean insightful to me, and I hope this does not transgress forum rules, it is given merely to provide context…

Extracted from Volume III of "Life Beyond The Veil" series.

"The Christ was present in the earth Sphere when it was without form, that is when it was non-material. When matter began to be He was the Master Spirit through whom the Father wrought into orderly constellations the material universe, as now you understand it. But, although He was present, yet He Himself was also formless, and took upon Himself, not material form but spiritual form, as the universe became endued with its outer manifestation, and so took form of matter. He was behind the whole phenomena, and the whole process passed through the Christ as the ages went along and matter grew from a chaos into a cosmos. That were not possible except for some dynamic entity operating from outside and superior to the chaos, and working downwards and into that chaos. For order cannot come out of what is lacking in order except by the addition of a new ingredient. It was the contact of the Christ Sphere with chaos that resulted in the cosmos.

"Chaos was matter in potential state. Cosmos is matter realised. But, this being so, matter as realised is but the phenomenal effect of that dynamic energy which, added to inertia, produced motion. Motion itself is the sum of the activities of will considered potentially. Will, passing from the potential state into its realisation, becomes motion regulated according to the quality of that particular will which is its creator. Hence the Creator of all, working through the Christ, produced, after ages of continuous urge, the cosmos.

"Christ was in the material universe from its inception and, that being so, He was in the earth sphere also while it gradually assumed first materiality and then form and last became, in its own turn interpreter of the meaning of the work of the ages which had become articulate, at length, in Earth's genesis. That is, it reproduced from itself the principle of creation and gave it expression. For from Earth came forth mineral and vegetable and animal forms of life-expression. See you, in what this eventuates? It means no less than that Earth and the whole Cosmos of matter is the Body of Christ.

"This is the Christ Who was One with the Father and, being One with the Father, was of the Father's Selfhood. Jesus of Nazareth was the expression of the thought of the Father, incarnate as the Christ for the Earth's salvation. So that we say to you, the Christ Who came to Galilee was but the Earth-expression of the Christ Universal, but true Christ withal. Now let us come to an end, albeit we have told you not a tithe of the glorious and splendid tale of the rhyme and rhythm of the aeons and their birth and marriage and their bringing forth of suns who smile upon their own lesser children to-day.

"The Christ then, descended with matter as matter descended - by precipitation, if you will - out of the energising of spirit dynamics. He was embodied in mineral life, for by Him all matter consists. He was embosomed in the rose and the lily, and all vegetable life was the life of Him by means of Whom their beauty and wonder came forth of matter moving onward towards reason, but, at the highest, only touching the hem of the garment of rational activity. And He became manifest also in the animal life of the earth, for animals, as man, are of His evolving. The highest expression of His will was mankind. And in due time He came forth of the invisible into the visible world. He, Who had made man, was Himself made man. He, by Whom man came to be and to persist, thought forward into matter, and His thought took on expression in Jesus of Nazareth. So He Who was the Anointed Agent of the Creator for the making of man, Himself became the Son of Man whom He had made."


So, in short, disregarding all creeds and dogmas concerning salvation or so called vicarious atonement, my personal belief is that in the man Jesus Himself is found a connecting link between humanity and its God. If there is one who should ask: "who is my God and how does He feel towards me, I don’t see Him in traditionalist teachings!", then without more than a single simple thought, that one can envisage and even feel his God who has not left him alone.

This is just my personal belief in answer to the original question and the trend of thought expressed. Peace.


Last edited by lastpost on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:57 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Hyperlink did not work so added text link)

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Re: What exactly is a Christian Spiritualist?

Post by Left Behind on Sun Aug 27, 2017 10:58 pm

There are many profound ideas there, Lastpost, which certainly bear re-reading, and much thought.

It's great to see you back: and please, don't be gone so long! Smile

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